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Regarding Linden's Command
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it's just all that time in Lit. classes, but what I've found is when you start reading/analyzing from a stance...say, of tropes to pick something random...[and royal you, most of those here use multiple views]...and say, of the fantasy genre, just for the hell of it...you end up not seeing the story for the tropes.
The main reason "Wuthering Heights" is good, and [insert soap opera here] sucks, is what is between the tropes...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
You see, I am giving Donaldson FAR more credit than some of you think. By giving Roger such and such an analysis, I am actually saving him from being a smaller, less devious trope or minor villain. Indeed, if Roger removed their masks himself, without being coerced by the Command, then he is without doubt the most ingenious villain ever contrived by the mind of man.

On the other hand, there are those on this forum who want to reduce Donaldson's achievement with this character, and this I will always fight against until the next book, or the next, proves me wrong.


I've gone cross-eyed from this current discussion. Laughing

Worm, will you elaborate on your opinions of Roger?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Maybe it's just all that time in Lit. classes, but what I've found is when you start reading/analyzing from a stance...say, of tropes to pick something random...[and royal you, most of those here use multiple views]...and say, of the fantasy genre, just for the hell of it...you end up not seeing the story for the tropes.
The main reason "Wuthering Heights" is good, and [insert soap opera here] sucks, is what is between the tropes...


Yes, well, I've already covered the literary aspects of the Chrons in past visits to this website. I fully agree that it is literature to a high degree. I've even explored the metaphysics of the Land. Now, I'm on to tropes for the moment.

But you must realize I have done this ONLY because I feel the need to justify my view of Roger Covenant. Categorizing him lends strength to my view. That is my primary purpose. Exploring the rest of the tropes in the Chrons is only for amusement purposes. And it's obvious someone else has already done most of the work.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
You see, I am giving Donaldson FAR more credit than some of you think. By giving Roger such and such an analysis, I am actually saving him from being a smaller, less devious trope or minor villain. Indeed, if Roger removed their masks himself, without being coerced by the Command, then he is without doubt the most ingenious villain ever contrived by the mind of man.

On the other hand, there are those on this forum who want to reduce Donaldson's achievement with this character, and this I will always fight against until the next book, or the next, proves me wrong.


I've gone cross-eyed from this current discussion. Laughing

Worm, will you elaborate on your opinions of Roger?


Roger is a greater villain than even Foul himself. He is not more powerful than Foul, obviously, and he is mortal unlike Foul. But Roger has gone beyond the level of Lord Foul the Chessmaster who merely sits back and gives a word of advice here and there to set his pawns on their courses of action. Roger is a Chessmaster, but he is also a master of disguise (the Trickster) and a Manipulative Bastard. In other words, he is a Magnificent Bastard.

I became convinced of this when I realized that Linden's Command cannot affect anything not of the Land's Earth, such as Foul, white gold, Covenant, Roger, Jeremiah, or Joan. This left me with only one conclusion: That Roger and Jeremiah removed their own respective disguises at EarthRoot, and that this was the very moment Roger had been waiting for.

I've analyzed that scene very thoroughly on this forum. Roger's short-term goal was to create enough despair in Linden (seeing her son's horrific condition with the croyel attached to his back and neck) to lead her to Andelain and commit the first Desecration: rousing the Worm. Eventually I believe she will commit a second Desecration confronting the Worm, perhaps in the next book. But eventually she will realize the truth: that Jeremiah is a willing participant (as was Kasreyn) with the croyel, that in fact Jeremiah hates her and desires never to return to his former life. It is Roger's task to bring her to this ultimate devastating conclusion, and eventually, to a Ritual of Desecration which will make Kevin's look paltry in comparison.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
It is Roger's task to bring her to this ultimate devastating conclusion, and eventually, to a Ritual of Desecration which will make Kevin's look paltry in comparison.


Deleted most of quote so peeps won't have to scroll forever....but
ACH! I see now...I think you're giving Roger too much credit [though I don't think he's just a whiney wimp, just as I don't agree with most of the "Linden's one dimensional, weak, stupid, whiney" crap]. I do agree he's a major player in the plot above, and not solely because he's weak and manipulated, but because it suits his nature [if he never came to the Land, he'd end up being the guy in charge of people who burn their kids, Manson, Jim Jones, Torquemada, Stalin].
In general, though this is simplified, I have always thought of Roger as what TC would be if he failed. All the reasons, all the potential power, all the depth, just a little too...confused? weak? lost?....or [scariest to me] vengeful.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
It is Roger's task to bring her to this ultimate devastating conclusion, and eventually, to a Ritual of Desecration which will make Kevin's look paltry in comparison.


Deleted most of quote so peeps won't have to scroll forever....but
ACH! I see now...I think you're giving Roger too much credit [though I don't think he's just a whiney wimp, just as I don't agree with most of the "Linden's one dimensional, weak, stupid, whiney" crap]. I do agree he's a major player in the plot above, and not solely because he's weak and manipulated, but because it suits his nature [if he never came to the Land, he'd end up being the guy in charge of people who burn their kids, Manson, Jim Jones, Torquemada, Stalin].
In general, though this is simplified, I have always thought of Roger as what TC would be if he failed. All the reasons, all the potential power, all the depth, just a little too...confused? weak? lost?....or [scariest to me] vengeful.


You mean Roger isn't a Magnificent Bastard? It only requires three elements: 1. Chessmaster, 2. Trickster, and 3. Manipulative Bastard. There is no doubt that Roger is all three. "Trickster" means that he is a master of disguise by its very definition at the tvtropes.org website. Need I go on?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I missed this on the Magnificent Bastard page the first time around.

"As a trickster, he or she can easily adjust strategy on the fly..."

This ties in with my analysis of a few days ago in which I stated that while Roger could not conceivably have known what Command Linden would issue forth, he is able to adjust fast enough to give the situation exactly what it requires. In this case, he needed to reveal the truth eventually, and Linden, his foil, played right into his hands and gave him the perfect opportunity with her Command.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But eventually she will realize the truth: that Jeremiah is a willing participant (as was Kasreyn) with the croyel, that in fact Jeremiah hates her and desires never to return to his former life. It is Roger's task to bring her to this ultimate devastating conclusion, and eventually, to a Ritual of Desecration which will make Kevin's look paltry in comparison.


I think that's a solid prediction, especially the comments about Jeremiah.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
But eventually she will realize the truth: that Jeremiah is a willing participant (as was Kasreyn) with the croyel, that in fact Jeremiah hates her and desires never to return to his former life. It is Roger's task to bring her to this ultimate devastating conclusion, and eventually, to a Ritual of Desecration which will make Kevin's look paltry in comparison.


I think that's a solid prediction, especially the comments about Jeremiah.


It doesn't even have to be the literal truth. Linden only has to be convinced that it's true. Knowing Roger...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
You mean Roger isn't a Magnificent Bastard? It only requires three elements: 1. Chessmaster, 2. Trickster, and 3. Manipulative Bastard. There is no doubt that Roger is all three. "Trickster" means that he is a master of disguise by its very definition at the tvtropes.org website. Need I go on?

I don't think Roger qualifies as chessmaster, since all his moves are planned by Lord Foul rather than himself. I don't think he qualifies as a trickster based solely on the ability to wear a disguise, a disguise which it is unclear if he created himself. I will grant Roger some points for being manipulative but he certainly could only do that while someone thought he was someone else - when Linden knew him as Roger in Runes she was well able to resist Roger's feable attempts at manipulation.

So I don't see Roger as a Magnificent Bastard, as defined. He's too much of a minion of Lord Foul, while an MB certainly must be independent and executing their own plans rather than someone elses.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
You mean Roger isn't a Magnificent Bastard? It only requires three elements: 1. Chessmaster, 2. Trickster, and 3. Manipulative Bastard. There is no doubt that Roger is all three. "Trickster" means that he is a master of disguise by its very definition at the tvtropes.org website. Need I go on?

I don't think Roger qualifies as chessmaster, since all his moves are planned by Lord Foul rather than himself. I don't think he qualifies as a trickster based solely on the ability to wear a disguise, a disguise which it is unclear if he created himself. I will grant Roger some points for being manipulative but he certainly could only do that while someone thought he was someone else - when Linden knew him as Roger in Runes she was well able to resist Roger's feable attempts at manipulation.

So I don't see Roger as a Magnificent Bastard, as defined. He's too much of a minion of Lord Foul, while an MB certainly must be independent and executing their own plans rather than someone elses.


I recall reading something useful about Roger's disguise, let me see if I can find it.

Here it is. The Mahdoubt explained to Linden:

Quote:
With the cursed gift of such a hand, your betrayer received...the power of glamour, of seeming


And of course, Roger is a chessmaster. Neither Foul nor Kasty, even if they set him on a general course of action, can tell him precisely which move to make at every moment. The real world requires split second decisions, such as removing their disguises when the moment was ripe. But that's not exactly a good example, Magnificent Bastards are excellent at Xanatos Speed Chess. Keeping Linden out of Andelain is one example of Chessmaster. Bringing Linden to the past is another - Roger was forced to change his plans after she acquired the Staff, another example of Xanatos Speed Chess. These are not manipulations so much as moving a piece (the queen) around the chessboard.

An example of a manipulation would be any attempt to make Linden use power. Bringing the Demondim to the Keep was manipulation. Advising Linden to make a wall of power against the Viles was manipulation. Advising Linden to be the second to drink of Earthblood was manipulation. Answering Linden's questions after she drank Earthblood, instead of attacking her when she was vulnerable, was manipulation. Leading her back out of Earthroot through a mock battle was manipulation (of course they also had to protect themselves from her blasts which were more powerful than they expected).

You agree that Roger is a Manipulative Bastard. But there is more to this than manipulation. According to tvtropes.org,

Quote:
If The Chessmaster is the master manipulator of events, the Manipulative Bastard is the master manipulator of emotions. The villain who gets off on playing head games — clever and dangerous and lacking comedic overtones. He or she always has a plan, but rather than do any work, the Manipulative Bastard prefers to play on other characters' emotions and then watch the victims destroy themselves.


This last explains many of Roger's decisions, it explains for example why he held off from destroying Linden at EarthRoot. That's not as fun, there is something extra sadistic about watching one's victims destroy themselves.

What a Magnificent Bastard!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Quote:
With the cursed gift of such a hand, your betrayer received...the power of glamour, of seeming

Exactly. Someone gave him the power. He just used it. When he was told to use it, for that matter - he probably didn't even think of the idea himself.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
And of course, Roger is a chessmaster. Neither Foul nor Kasty, even if they set him on a general course of action, can tell him precisely which move to make at every moment.

Correct. However, Roger can't be a Chess Master if someone else chooses his course of action. He's a piece on the board.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
An example of a manipulation would be any attempt to make Linden use power.

An example of an expert manipulator would have been someone able to convince Linden to let Joan go home with him. Right?

Instead, we find a person who, tellingly sans Foul and Elohimhand, who is too pathetically incompetent to not betray that he cares nothing for his mother, that he only wants to use her. Not manipulative. Not tricky. Not a master.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Quote:
With the cursed gift of such a hand, your betrayer received...the power of glamour, of seeming

Exactly. Someone gave him the power. He just used it. When he was told to use it, for that matter - he probably didn't even think of the idea himself.


We don't know who thought of it. But we do know who gifted Roger the lava hand, and we do know that it gives him the power of "glamour" or "seeming" because the Mahdoubt said so in the quote above.

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
And of course, Roger is a chessmaster. Neither Foul nor Kasty, even if they set him on a general course of action, can tell him precisely which move to make at every moment.

Correct. However, Roger can't be a Chess Master if someone else chooses his course of action. He's a piece on the board.


Roger plays along, but he has an ulterior motive to be revealed later on in the Last Chrons. But there is a problem with my theory. A true Chessmaster rarely if ever gets his hands dirty. So Roger isn't a Chessmaster in that respect. And in a sense it doesn't make sense for tvtropes.org to claim that a Magnificent Bastard is part Chessmaster, and the site does say there are differences between the two tropes.

If Roger is a Chessmaster then it's because he is playing a game of his own. I believe this to be the case. That's why I say that for now he is only playing along. Sometimes minions use their masters to get to other places, to raise their own rank in the scheme of things. Roger has stated that Foul promised to make him a god. MY belief is that Roger wants to be the ONLY god.

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
An example of a manipulation would be any attempt to make Linden use power.

An example of an expert manipulator would have been someone able to convince Linden to let Joan go home with him. Right?

Instead, we find a person who, tellingly sans Foul and Elohimhand, who is too pathetically incompetent to not betray that he cares nothing for his mother, that he only wants to use her. Not manipulative. Not tricky. Not a master.


Even Lord Foul makes mistakes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we find a person who, tellingly sans Foul and Elohimhand, who is too pathetically incompetent to not betray that he cares nothing for his mother, that he only wants to use her.


I don't have my copy of ROTE in front of me, but isn't there something in the first chapter that indicates Roger does have some compassion for his mother? Something about him taking pity on her distress. Maybe it was just manipulation, but the text didn't seem to suggest that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Borillar wrote:
Quote:
we find a person who, tellingly sans Foul and Elohimhand, who is too pathetically incompetent to not betray that he cares nothing for his mother, that he only wants to use her.


I don't have my copy of ROTE in front of me, but isn't there something in the first chapter that indicates Roger does have some compassion for his mother? Something about him taking pity on her distress. Maybe it was just manipulation, but the text didn't seem to suggest that.


Maybe Roger does have some compassion. Or maybe he's just using his mother. If the latter, then what does he want? Her white gold wedding ring, of course.

In the end, Roger will acquire white gold. And, along with Foul's onslaught, they will both shatter the Arch and bridge the gap between worlds.

Quote:
More lightning rent the night. The blasts were growing more frequent, fiercer; accumulating toward a convulsion which would crack the boundary between realities.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the sound of this discussion, but I'm also wondering if what Amok told the quest for the Blood of the Earth in TIW is just like the inconsistency-generating-history-of-the-One-Tree part of the original two series.

Not to mention: how on Earth did Damelon//Kevin/Amok/whoever know the limits of the EarthBlood? Did they (not including Amok) try it out? I think it's said that they didn't. Did one of the Insequent advise Damelon about Melenkurion Skyweir like the Theomach did re: Berek and the Seven Words (what is the meaning of the identity of the name of the mountain and the first of the Words)? Maybe, I guess, but... *Shrugs*

While I'm at it, why the eff did the Elohim not Appoint someone to guard the EarthBlood, since they Appointed a guard at the One Tree to prevent the Worm from being roused and the EarthBlood can rouse the Worm? Or did they Appoint someone and that person was the one who taught Damelon and Co. the EarthBlood's power?
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