Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Is our universe real? What if it isn't?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12921

Thanks: 84
Thanked 58 Times in 56 Posts


3644 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Is our universe real? What if it isn't? Reply with quote

I've always been a bit of a solipsist, long before I would read the word that described how I often felt. So as a young teen or tween or whatever, some fairly bad sci-fi story (probably Piers Anthony) that featured two kids, who find out they're actually in a fake Earth kind of zoo run by aliens, appealed to me (though I remember thinking at that time, what if I'm not even a real person but a simulated one, like a very realistic robot or something). A few years later, I'd read a short story in F&SF about a guy who finds out his whole life is actually a TV show—a concept that would show up again a few years later in the movie The Truman Show. Throw in a love for cyberpunk, reading Plato's Allegory of the Cave... well, that just made it really cool to see the idea presented in The Matrix. (Come to think of it, this probably all stems from my folks telling me that I'm both special and that my dead grandfather was watching over me. I took that crap literally, so... Things I need to tell my shrink if I ever get one, I suppose).

So when I'd come across articles stating that the probability of our universe being a simulation is higher than it not being one, I paid attention. I also had an... uh... profound experience where I perceived without a doubt that this was the case. While that level of conviction didn't carry over to the next morning, the sense of it has stayed with me.

Today, I read this: Scientists plan test to see if the entire universe is a simulation created by futuristic supercomputers. I'm looking forward to the results, though think it isn't likely that the test will prove it conclusively either way.

I'm curious, though; what do you guys think? Is our universe without a doubt real? What would it mean to you if you found out it wasn't?
_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 13263

Thanks: 24
Thanked 121 Times in 117 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
74326 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard about this a few weeks ago and the premise is fascinating. Even if we were able to somehow find evidence that supports the notion that we are a simulation we wouldn't be able to end the simulation or get out of it without breaking the program, which would end the universe. That is generally thought of a A Very Bad Thing (tm).

We can begin by applying Pascal's Wager to this question: is the universe a simulation being run on some sort of unbelievably-advanced computer in a meta-universe? That question actually cannot be answered so we consider both situations of "yes" and "no".
If "yes", then we have a choice: we can either do nothing, in which case nothing happens and the simulation runs its course or we can try to reverse-engineer the simulation and potentially break it (which I doubt could happen, in any event).
If "no" then we have a choice: do nothing, in which case nothing happens and we keep going on like before or we try to reverse-engineer something that doesn't exist and we spend a little money, build some fancy machines, and waste a little time.
Either way, the worst outcome is "spend a little money and waste a little time", which really isn't all that bad. We might even learn something else in the meantime that we might not have learned had we not pursued that line of reasoning. If we consider the other worst-case scenario as possible--breaking the simulation program--then we would cease to exist, in which case we won't be worrying about anything any more.

Now...the other question to consider...let us presume, for the sake of argument, that the universe is a simulation. Who programmed the simulation? Wouldn't that person fit most people's definition of "God"?

The "universe as simulation" is just updated Deism--some higher being built the universe, set it into motion, then stepped back to watch it run. This also ties in with Covenant and the Land--the person who designed the simulation cannot edit the simulation without breaking it, so even if they see an error they have to let it run rather than stopping the whole thing.

Phillip K. Dick often wrote stories about how the world wasn't what the protragonist thought it was.

What if we, in our limited intelligence yet self-awareness, are unintended side-effects of the simulation? The programmers didn't forsee it but are watching to see what happens....

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10616

Thanks: 17
Thanked 99 Times in 96 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Phillip K. Dick often wrote stories about how the world wasn't what the protragonist thought it was.

What if we, in our limited intelligence yet self-awareness, are unintended side-effects of the simulation? The programmers didn't forsee it but are watching to see what happens....[/color]


He did. I think Scanner Darkly and Flow My Tears are my faves of his...maybe my faves of all "Confused World"/"Delusionary Reality" works.

What if there is more than one programmer...lots more...what if we're viruses whose lives seem long [and too short], but only cuz we're running at petaflop speeds [or higher] while they're just figuring out the code to wipe us?
What if we find it is so and figure how to hack their industrial machines and make meta-real bodies for ourselves in that real metaverse?

It really is just Neo-Deism basically...which doesn't mean it's not fun.

_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Effaeldm
Better Keep Quiet About It

Ranyhyn
Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2896

Thanks: 69
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts

Location: Deep in psychotic, warped and weird thoughts
319 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Summoning1 Dreams1 Dalek


PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, what if we see that Lovecraft was basically right about what people can handle - how is that for a possible bad outcome? People just barely understand that observation changes what's observed - and the fact that it's also true that observation changes the one observing quite often manages to slip away. People with such knowledge may be not the ones they were - hard to say if for better or worse.

However, this experiment is most likely to be deemed not reliable enough and change next to nothing. An interesting attempt and a mind exercise at least though.
_________________
A role-player, beware
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6628

Thanks: 17
Thanked 58 Times in 57 Posts

Location: Getting there...
8153 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo... we're like the TechnoCore in those Simmons books? Confused

Here's an idea: Ask yourself "is matter real?" Go ahead. All your sensory outputs? What do they add to the overall "program"? Would we not be manifestations of that "program" and not the "program" itself? If we are manifestations, how are we going to know the program? All ready, with our "primitive" programming, understanding the actual language of the program has become impossible (or at least very difficult) how can we than make sense of/identify a program that simulates/manifests a universe? How could we unless it was part of the program? Aren't people dying of cancer and starvation even as we speak?

Armchair musings are one thing. They are often amusing and go great with some gin and good pipe tobacco. As far as wasting one's scientific ability/funding on something with little demonstrable benefit aside from "Hey! Let's get the internet talking about U of W for thirty minutes!", that seems kinda silly and... irresponsible.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 57501

Thanks: 73
Thanked 173 Times in 169 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
27680 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Is our universe real? What if it isn't? Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
...some fairly bad sci-fi story (probably Piers Anthony) that featured two kids, who find out they're actually in a fake Earth kind of zoo run by aliens...


I remember that one. Very Happy There was also the one where the people were all dead and had had their consciousness transferred into robots to test advertising, and the whole town was on a table-top.

In cases like these, I always refer to TOM's sig...if you can't tell the difference, then what difference does it make? Very Happy (Or something like that.)

--A
_________________
It's easy to judge. It's more difficult to understand.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
peter
the aging savage


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 8150

Thanks: 39
Thanked 52 Times in 51 Posts


37025 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm always amazed how easily people who will not begin to accept the idea of a creator will aceppt the same idea as a possibility once it is couched in 'scientific' tems like 'simulation' or 'hologram' etc. I can't make the distinction myself. If the Universe we live in was 'created' by a setient being or beings, then that being or beings would constitute 'God' to me irrespective of whether they wore white coats and worked in a laboratory or sat in a golden chair with long white hair and a beard.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10616

Thanks: 17
Thanked 99 Times in 96 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Would we not be manifestations of that "program" and not the "program" itself? If we are manifestations, how are we going to know the program? All ready, with our "primitive" programming, understanding the actual language of the program has become impossible (or at least very difficult)


If I'm reading this part correctly, there is somewhere by someone a novel that talks a bit about this, kinda. [isn't there always? Smile ]
We [We're actually just the most recent of a long line of beings to do so] "create" AI, and they fracture like human cultures...some turn on us/go to war and nearly extinguish us...but aliens come and help. They [among other things] teach/explain to us almost all intelligences create intelligence and encounter the same problem...once creations are intelligent they are no longer able to examine/comprehend their own "machine code" and such...so they become "irrational," have "subconscious" and "instincts" and "desires" and such...if coded in such a way that this doesn't happen, they also don't [literally can't] become intelligent.

peter wrote:
If the Universe we live in was 'created' by a setient being or beings, then that being or beings would constitute 'God' to me irrespective of whether they wore white coats and worked in a laboratory or sat in a golden chair with long white hair and a beard.
I don't go for the sentient creator thing just cuz the framework/definition is changed. But there is an arguable distinction if one wants to go that way: A "technical/scientific/engineer" God we could, at least theoretically, come to understand...even be/imitate at some point...cuz it is natural, just supremely advanced. A "supernatural" god/creator is something else.
_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae


Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 18491

Thanks: 100
Thanked 97 Times in 93 Posts


10527 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Foul Duck1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter the barsteward wrote:
I'm always amazed how easily people who will not begin to accept the idea of a creator will aceppt the same idea as a possibility once it is couched in 'scientific' tems like 'simulation' or 'hologram' etc. I can't make the distinction myself. If the Universe we live in was 'created' by a setient being or beings, then that being or beings would constitute 'God' to me irrespective of whether they wore white coats and worked in a laboratory or sat in a golden chair with long white hair and a beard.

Speaking only for myself, I accept the possibility of a creator as easily as I accept these ideas. There's just no evidence for any of it. No evidence that reality is not exactly as it appears to be.
_________________
We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD

All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Holsety
Full of Hot Air

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 3406

Thanks: 94
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts

Location: Principality of Sealand
1403 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Captains Fancy1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm curious, though; what do you guys think? Is our universe without a doubt real? What would it mean to you if you found out it wasn't?

I'm not sure I think of a simulation - even through a computer - as fake. The only implication it would seem to have in a basic sense is the desire to keep the simulation going, or for it to be in some way satisfying as it goes along for as long as some "higher intelligence" wants it to (assuming the higher intelligence even can end it).

When people who seem to be within my universe start talking about planning a simulation to predict it, it just seems like a new version of cultish mysticism. But, hey, that is overly derogatory. They have spent their lives studying the universe and have - more or less - a fundamental right to inquiry. Nor do I have the wisdom to tell em it's BS.

I certainly loved that Fassbinder movie about scientists running a simulation who realize that there is a simulation "above" them. Think it was called World on a Wire.
Quote:
The "universe as simulation" is just updated Deism--some higher being built the universe, set it into motion, then stepped back to watch it run. This also ties in with Covenant and the Land--the person who designed the simulation cannot edit the simulation without breaking it, so even if they see an error they have to let it run rather than stopping the whole thing.

The summation aspect of deism as very rapidly summarized in schools (when mentioning its existence among the founding fathers etc) is that it expresses the assumption that "god turned away."

At one point manipulating, now not - though perhaps affecting merely by presence all the same.

In my mind, this suggests a "we are responsible for ourselves" idea. To a certain extent, this puts Pascal's Wager in question, I think. In a very simplistic way, I think that in another dichotomy I know very little about beyond the labels, I think it puts "works" over "faith" in our own lives (again addressing a monotheistic concept).

This reminds me of a quote from a movie I like, that I've always taken as a bit less straightforward than it comes across. Be warned - severe blasphemy, at least in the literal sense.
Spoiler:
You see, no one's going to help you Bubby, because there isn't anybody out there to do it. No one. We're all just complicated arrangements of atoms and subatomic particles — we don't live. But our atoms do move about in such a way as to give us identity and consciousness. We don't die; our atoms just rearrange themselves. There is no God. There can be no God; it's ridiculous to think in terms of a superior being. An inferior being, maybe, because we, we who don't even exist, we arrange our lives with more order and harmony than God ever arranged the earth. We measure; we plot; we create wonderful new things. We are the architects of our own existence. What a lunatic concept to bow down before a God who slaughters millions of innocent children, slowly and agonizingly starves them to death, beats them, tortures them, rejects them. What folly to even think that we should not insult such a God, damn him, think him out of existence. It is our duty to think God out of existence. It is our duty to insult him. Fuck you, God! Strike me down if you dare, you tyrant, you non-existent fraud! It is the duty of all human beings to think God out of existence. Then we have a future. Because then — and only then — do we take full responsibility for who we are. And that's what you must do, Bubby: think God out of existence; take responsibility for who you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyGgDR3Yc4Y
Incidentally, I believe this scientist (or presumed scientist) plays an organ at the first church bubby walks into in the movie, and bubby's attraction to the music of the organ is how they meet. Also, this is the last scene the guy appears, which is typical for this movie.

I also think that looking at something like this in general, if we think of the world as something modeled, and manipulated with, god/scientist feels less like something to curry favor with, and more like something incidental as we optimize things we'd consider fairly real (not necessarily material, but probably through what is or feels material). And - whether an individual or a whole civilization or whatever - it seems reasonable to conclude that the act of being part of an intentionally designed simulation means that our makers have something to learn from us. We can take pride in the idea that we may teach something while not making the lessons we teach the guiding reason for our existence - perhaps.

I think the most "explicit" message I ever got from a "conspiracy" or "cosmic force" was something like "why are you trying to explain the message to the author?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
peter
the aging savage


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 8150

Thanks: 39
Thanked 52 Times in 51 Posts


37025 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
technical/scientific/engineer" God we could, at least theoretically, come to understand...even be/imitate at some point...cuz it is natural, just supremely advanced. A "supernatural" god/creator is something else. [/color]


I think at this level the distinctions between the two would not hold up (exept in the actual aspect of 'creation' itself. ie Presumably our advanced technocrats have themselves at some point come into being, where our 'supernatural God' is of infinite duration.) But the 'sufficiently advanced science being seen as magic' quote which I now forget (but I'm sure you know the one) does come into play here.
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10616

Thanks: 17
Thanked 99 Times in 96 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter the barsteward wrote:
Vraith wrote:
technical/scientific/engineer" God we could, at least theoretically, come to understand...even be/imitate at some point...cuz it is natural, just supremely advanced. A "supernatural" god/creator is something else. [/color]


I think at this level the distinctions between the two would not hold up (exept in the actual aspect of 'creation' itself. ie Presumably our advanced technocrats have themselves at some point come into being, where our 'supernatural God' is of infinite duration.) But the 'sufficiently advanced science being seen as magic' quote which I now forget (but I'm sure you know the one) does come into play here.


Well, that quote might appear to be so/apply from OUR viewpoint [limited/primitive] in effect. But there is a difference between natural creation [it happens cuz of how things are] manufactured creation [it happens cuz someone figured out how nature works] and Supernatural/Magical creation [it happens because something we can't even theoretically understand says "Because I said so. So there."]
_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the aging savage


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 8150

Thanks: 39
Thanked 52 Times in 51 Posts


37025 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fully agree about that distinction Vraith, but there will always be things that straddle the two. We can take the meteorolocical phenomina of lightening as one example that has 'crossed the divide' from being seen initially as 'magic' to being understood as an explainable (scientifically that is) phenomena. The advance of knowledge will always tend to push that threshold back (of what is seen as rationally explainable and what is not) - but I doubt it will ever erradicate it.

And can I just backtrack to Fist's comment below - is there really "no evidence that reality is not exactly as it appears to be"? It may be a cliche, but surely the old saying 'apperarences can be deceptive' has some background in truth! Wink
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
Obligate Metaphor


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 10616

Thanks: 17
Thanked 99 Times in 96 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
31653 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter the barsteward wrote:
We can take the meteorolocical phenomina of lightening as one example that has 'crossed the divide' from being seen initially as 'magic' to being understood as an explainable (scientifically that is) phenomena.

Hee...funny you mention lightning, saw this a couple months ago:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120926-what-causes-lightening
_________________
Spoiler:
Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.

the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the aging savage


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 8150

Thanks: 39
Thanked 52 Times in 51 Posts


37025 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow - thats a first Vraith. The page isn't available to UK viewers coz it isn.t covered by our tv licence fee! That sucks!
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 18120

Thanks: 42
Thanked 187 Times in 179 Posts


27268 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter the barsteward wrote:
I'm always amazed how easily people who will not begin to accept the idea of a creator will aceppt the same idea as a possibility once it is couched in 'scientific' tems like 'simulation' or 'hologram' etc. I can't make the distinction myself. If the Universe we live in was 'created' by a setient being or beings, then that being or beings would constitute 'God' to me irrespective of whether they wore white coats and worked in a laboratory or sat in a golden chair with long white hair and a beard.
The distinction is the same as the tooth fairy vs your parents, or Atlas vs gravity. It's a natural, testable, falsifiable explanation of something vs a magical explanation for something, which can't be tested, verified, or falsified.

If super-scientists created us, I don't understand why this would constitute "god." I certainly wouldn't feel compelled to worship them. If they told me:

"I made you, now you have to do what I say or suffer eternal torment,"

I'd reply:

"Ah, I see ... so then giving me freewill was just some twisted joke by a bunch of violent, torturing, control-freak psychopaths. Got it. Now go f*ck yourselves, super-scientists."
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Holsety
Full of Hot Air

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 3406

Thanks: 94
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts

Location: Principality of Sealand
1403 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army1 Captains Fancy1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If super-scientists created us, I don't understand why this would constitute "god." I certainly wouldn't feel compelled to worship them. If they told me:

"I made you, now you have to do what I say or suffer eternal torment,"

I'd reply:

"Ah, I see ... so then giving me freewill was just some twisted joke by a bunch of violent, torturing, control-freak psychopaths. Got it. Now go f*ck yourselves, super-scientists."

What if "eternal" was crossed off of that sentence?

Well it's probably just a rhetorical trick in any case.

In general, I believe that the "scientist" aspect of a god perfectly justifies a general restraint in communication, because the experimental structures often focuses at least in part on estimating whether observation will be detected, to what extent detection will result, etc. Yet, that does not mean that very immediate, direct, and sudden action or communication should be assumed to signal the existence of a control-freak psycopath (psycopath more generally, maybe). Simply because no stated command structure exists, furthermore, is not reason enough for you to use the mere existence of free will in order to resent a proposed penalty and ignore the possibility that a command or order may represent a decent proposition you have not considered. That you don't have the time to waste some dealing with shadowy nonsense manipulators probably is reason enough.

Still, to some extent, if they monitor the experiment, some understanding of the rules of decorum (either in manipulating us or in dealing with us sincerely at times, etc) "feels" necessary in order for them to deserve any kind of respect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
peter
the aging savage


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 8150

Thanks: 39
Thanked 52 Times in 51 Posts


37025 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might believe in God, but that doesn't make me compelled to worship him (alas I can't even go that far - I'm one of the weak-knee'd palid lilley-livered 'I don't know'ing fence-sitters Very Happy). I think each of us define for ourselves what 'God' would be if we choose/chose to believe in him, and the scientist creator would fit the bill for some as equally validly as it would not for others. No - the key point here as I said earlier is one of the initial point of creation. Our scientist creator is not God for no other reason than he himself is the product of creation as well. Not untill you get to the 'infinite been-there-forever nothing before me' creator (or not as the case may be) have you reached a God that fulfils the brief.

Anyway - if these scientist f*ck's do turn out to be out there boy have they got some answering to do!

(Perhaps we are virtual creations in giant computers that are now full of angst that "Shit - maybe these humans we created are one day going to be cleverer than we are and be able to beat us at chess!")
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 13263

Thanks: 24
Thanked 121 Times in 117 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
74326 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if we are in a simulation we will never be able to get out of it--we exist only inside the simulation so leaving it would cause us to blink out of existence.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae


Joined: 01 Dec 2002
Posts: 18491

Thanks: 100
Thanked 97 Times in 93 Posts


10527 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Foul Duck1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 2011 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter the barsteward wrote:
I'm one of the weak-knee'd palid lilley-livered 'I don't know'ing fence-sitters Very Happy

There's nothing weak in this position, which I happen to share. I don't claim to know that there isn't a being powerful enough to do anything and everything, including not being detectable in any way.


Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Even if we are in a simulation we will never be able to get out of it--we exist only inside the simulation so leaving it would cause us to blink out of existence.

Like Moriarty stepping off of the holodeck. Can't be done.
_________________
We are not required to save the world. We are required to stand up as truly as we can for what we love. -SRD

All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch