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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:57 am    Post subject: Time Travel Reply with quote

How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Quote:
Covenant muttered an obscenity under his breath. "You're right. We didn't break through time. We didn't threaten the Arch. Instead we sort of slipped between the cracks.


Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Quote:
Covenant muttered an obscenity under his breath. "You're right. We didn't break through time. We didn't threaten the Arch. Instead we sort of slipped between the cracks.


Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.


I've often felt that the 1st Chronicles contain time paradoxes and maybe even time travel. In the Illearth War, dharmakshetra's torture, Lord Shetra's fall, and Hoerkin ahamkara's trap, could well formulate 'effect' before 'cause'; events contrary to the normal timeline. Of course Shetra's name could easily signify her personal expertise in 'the enemy'.
Do you think it odd that the attack on Soaring Woodhelvin had a griffin when the Bloodguard and Eoward warriors had already told Lord Prothal the story of Irin's fate, and how she had beheaded the beast. There may well have been more than one griffin running around, but what if the ur-viles had had access to a time-tunnel.

How to tie these ideas into a coherent theory, beats me!

Kevin's Watch, could well be more than just an observation platform for the ancient Lord. His ritual of desecration may have also caused a rift in the fabric of...the plotline!
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.


I'm so sure the cracks in the fabric of time where there, even in the first chronicles. The best clue I have is what was Lord Foul's fatal error he slipped in Kiril Threndor, while invoking the message to Revelstone and the Lord's, and then sending Thomas Covenant to Kevin's Watch.

At the moment, I can't find the book - Lord Foul's Bane. But when I do I'll give an update.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.


I'm so sure the cracks in the fabric of time where there, even in the first chronicles. The best clue I have is what was Lord Foul's fatal error he slipped in Kiril Threndor, while invoking the message to Revelstone and the Lord's, and then sending Thomas Covenant to Kevin's Watch.

At the moment, I can't find the book - Lord Foul's Bane. But when I do I'll give an update.


I would appreciate it if you would, since Lord Foul did not make any mistakes in Kiril Threndor. Sending Covenant to Kevin's Watch was necessary to free him from Drool's clutches. But Drool's aid was required to summon Covenant. Foul cannot wield a Staff, he has no physical being, so someone like Drool was necessary to achieve the Summoning. Foul then betrayed him by declaring that this prey was his and not Drool's. Betraying him was part of Foul's plan.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Foul cannot wield a Staff, he has no physical being, so someone like Drool was necessary to achieve the Summoning.


So why didn't Foul need Drool to summon Covenant in the Second Chronicles? Joan summoned Linded in ROTE, but if someone else summoned Covenant and Linded in TWL, I've forgotten.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

Cambo wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Foul cannot wield a Staff, he has no physical being, so someone like Drool was necessary to achieve the Summoning.


So why didn't Foul need Drool to summon Covenant in the Second Chronicles? Joan summoned Linded in ROTE, but if someone else summoned Covenant and Linded in TWL, I've forgotten.


The breaking of Law made many things possible. It enabled Foul to appear in the flames in the "real" world. It enabled the Community of Retribution to enact a ceremony without which their summoning could not have happened.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough- but then, why did Foul employ Joan to summon Linden, Roger and Jeremiah in ROTE? Why wouldn't he just do it himself?
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cambo wrote:
Fair enough- but then, why did Foul employ Joan to summon Linden, Roger and Jeremiah in ROTE? Why wouldn't he just do it himself?


My previous response indicated that Foul needed help from the Community of Retribution. It required the blood, the ritual, the sacrifices. All these things went into the Summoning. This time around, turiya/Joan has white gold, there is no need for elaborate rituals.

My only question is: who summoned Joan? And how? Also, how did Roger and Jeremiah visit the Land before the beginning of ROTE?
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are interesting questions.

If Foul really is incapable of independent summoning, I have no idea who may have summoned Joan. One of the Ravers, perhaps? And what about the lightning? In TWL, Foul was able to manifest himself in the bonfire, but I got the feeling he wasn't able to do much more than look around, maybe give advice to his minions in the Community. And it was the Community themselves who built the bonfire. In ROTE, we've got a freakish lightning storm heralding his presence. I don't see how anyone but Foul could cause a lightning storm in our world, but that would imply that he's gone from only being able to do remote viewing into our world...to being powerful enough to manipulate weather patterns. Shocked

As for Jeremiah and Roger, my theory is that their respective experiences with the Community of Retribution left them with one foot in the Land, so to speak. We don't know much about Roger's backstory, but Jerry at least was in close proximity to Linden and Covenant's first summoning, and much is made of Foul having left his mark on him in the burning of his hand. Possibly this gave them the ability to travel to the Land without being summoned, intentionally or kind of by accident? Also, do we know that Roger has actually been to the Land in person before? He has a lot of inside knowledge, but that could be sufficiently explained by communication across the worlds. If he can get instructions as to how arrange for Joan, Jerry and Linden to be summoned, couldn't he get an education on the Land's history as well?
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cambo wrote:
Those are interesting questions.

If Foul really is incapable of independent summoning, I have no idea who may have summoned Joan. One of the Ravers, perhaps? And what about the lightning? In TWL, Foul was able to manifest himself in the bonfire, but I got the feeling he wasn't able to do much more than look around, maybe give advice to his minions in the Community. And it was the Community themselves who built the bonfire. In ROTE, we've got a freakish lightning storm heralding his presence. I don't see how anyone but Foul could cause a lightning storm in our world, but that would imply that he's gone from only being able to do remote viewing into our world...to being powerful enough to manipulate weather patterns. Shocked

As for Jeremiah and Roger, my theory is that their respective experiences with the Community of Retribution left them with one foot in the Land, so to speak. We don't know much about Roger's backstory, but Jerry at least was in close proximity to Linden and Covenant's first summoning, and much is made of Foul having left his mark on him in the burning of his hand. Possibly this gave them the ability to travel to the Land without being summoned, intentionally or kind of by accident? Also, do we know that Roger has actually been to the Land in person before? He has a lot of inside knowledge, but that could be sufficiently explained by communication across the worlds. If he can get instructions as to how arrange for Joan, Jerry and Linden to be summoned, couldn't he get an education on the Land's history as well?


I'm sure Roger was in the Land before ROTE, and acquired his lava hand from Kasty. All three of them give me the impression of being in two worlds at once for a while. There is a lot of backstory that needs explaining.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cambo wrote:
As for Jeremiah and Roger, my theory is that their respective experiences with the Community of Retribution left them with one foot in the Land, so to speak.


Exactly correct. Because they both have an intimate connection with Thomas, himself, this gave them additional access to being transitioned to the Land.

I think that the person who does the summoning becomes the "user" or "owner" of the person being summoned; the summonnee is the "tool". As you have discovered from SRDs stories, a tool is no more powerful than the person who creates/summons it and, in fact, is an extension of the summoner. Thus, in order to trick someone into giving him what he wants, Foul cannot be the controller or owner of the summonnee. In short, if Foul summons you directly then you are just an extension of him, even if you act against him. However, this negates the necessities of freedom and choice, both of which are essential for Foul to attain his goals.

Did that paragraph make any sense whatsoever?

Jeremiah slipped into the Land because he was part of the Community of Retribution and he has a connection with Linden. Although I would have to reread that section of the book, I suspect Linden summoned herself to the Land.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Does that mean that Covenant was Drool, Elena, and Foamfollower's tool the three times he was summoned (fully) to the Land in the First Chrons?

He certainly doesn't behave as one of their tools. His manipulation of Elena in particular doesn't seem the behaviour of a tool. I'm not denying there's an important connection- he does fade away whenever his summoner dies, after all. I'm not ready to put the relationship down as tool/wielder just yet, though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd"]
Cambo wrote:
My only question is: who summoned Joan? And how?


The Staff of Law can summon someone to the Land. Anele doesn't strike me as the summoner. The Waynhim might have done so, being the custodians of the Staff; reasons not revealed yet.
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cambo wrote:
Hmm. Does that mean that Covenant was Drool, Elena, and Foamfollower's tool the three times he was summoned (fully) to the Land in the First Chrons?

He certainly doesn't behave as one of their tools. His manipulation of Elena in particular doesn't seem the behaviour of a tool. I'm not denying there's an important connection- he does fade away whenever his summoner dies, after all. I'm not ready to put the relationship down as tool/wielder just yet, though.


Only in a loose sense of the word, yes. Recall that in the Second Chronicles Foul needed Covenant to choose to come to the Land otherwise even when he gets the ring it would have done him no good. Recall, also, the same motif in the Gap Cycle--Warden could not directly tell Morn what to do or she would have been useless to him.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I would appreciate it if you would, since Lord Foul did not make any mistakes in Kiril Threndor. Sending Covenant to Kevin's Watch was necessary to free him from Drool's clutches. But Drool's aid was required to summon Covenant. Foul cannot wield a Staff, he has no physical being, so someone like Drool was necessary to achieve the Summoning. Foul then betrayed him by declaring that this prey was his and not Drool's. Betraying him was part of Foul's plan.


I still can't provide the actually quotation at this time. You can find Lord Foul's mistake during his long diatribe in Kiril Threndor. Once he noticed that he had made the mistake, he notes that Thomas Covenant is huddled on the floor with his arms over his head, cringing to the max. He believes Covenant wasn't aware of what he had said. Covenant heard. But was in no position to make anything from it.

For the time being, my concern is more with the name, Kiril Threndor. I think it means, and indicates - Three Doors - Doors Through Time.
The Krill is the key to understanding how these Doors are to be used.

As for Lord Foul having no physical being. I beg to differ.
Does not Thomas Covenant break the spell cast by the Illearth Stone, exposing Lord Foul. Or to put in other words, bring Lord Foul into the present and presence of all by solving the riddle of...Kiril Threndor.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Cambo wrote:
As for Jeremiah and Roger, my theory is that their respective experiences with the Community of Retribution left them with one foot in the Land, so to speak.


Exactly correct. Because they both have an intimate connection with Thomas, himself, this gave them additional access to being transitioned to the Land.

I think that the person who does the summoning becomes the "user" or "owner" of the person being summoned; the summonnee is the "tool". As you have discovered from SRDs stories, a tool is no more powerful than the person who creates/summons it and, in fact, is an extension of the summoner. Thus, in order to trick someone into giving him what he wants, Foul cannot be the controller or owner of the summonnee. In short, if Foul summons you directly then you are just an extension of him, even if you act against him. However, this negates the necessities of freedom and choice, both of which are essential for Foul to attain his goals.

Did that paragraph make any sense whatsoever?

Jeremiah slipped into the Land because he was part of the Community of Retribution and he has a connection with Linden. Although I would have to reread that section of the book, I suspect Linden summoned herself to the Land.


The connections with TC/Linden/white gold are WHY they're wanted in the Land, but not part of HOW they're connected.
Jerry/Joan/Roger have a semi-present connection, sort of spiritual/ethereal cuz of Community AND because laws have been broken...none of them were physically present, ever, before the bonfire in Runes...the physical translation doesn't happen until they are dying and therefore leaving the "real" world anyway, even with the weaker barrier [remember Troy had to be dying, and his summoner died in doing it...the laws weren't broken yet, the price was higher, cuz summoner hadn't the lore or tools.]
Sorta what I mean is a summoner isn't really necessary on the Land side anymore...with the laws broken, the door at that end is always open...all that was needed was for the door to be opened on "our" end...that's the info that was whispered into Roger's ear.
Related AATE SPOILER: Spoiler:
TC could only kill Joan cuz in real world already dead...recall, always return to real world in same condition left it. I think that rule still functions.


I don't think it's a general rule that the summoned is the tool of the summoner, TC was never Drool's tool, or any of his other summoners: I think that only applies to meta-being summoners like Creator/LF, not to summoners who belong in the world.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Krazy Kat wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.


I'm so sure the cracks in the fabric of time where there, even in the first chronicles. The best clue I have is what was Lord Foul's fatal error he slipped in Kiril Threndor, while invoking the message to Revelstone and the Lord's, and then sending Thomas Covenant to Kevin's Watch.

At the moment, I can't find the book - Lord Foul's Bane. But when I do I'll give an update.


I would appreciate it if you would, since Lord Foul did not make any mistakes in Kiril Threndor. Sending Covenant to Kevin's Watch was necessary to free him from Drool's clutches. But Drool's aid was required to summon Covenant. Foul cannot wield a Staff, he has no physical being, so someone like Drool was necessary to achieve the Summoning. Foul then betrayed him by declaring that this prey was his and not Drool's. Betraying him was part of Foul's plan.


At last, I now have an omnibus edition of the first chronicles.

Quote:
from: Chapter 3 - Invitation To A Betrayal -

'He intends you to be my final foe. He chose you - you, groveller, with a might in your hands such as no mortal has ever held before - chose you to destroy me. But he will find that I am not so easily mastered. You have might - wild magic which preserves your life at this moment - but you will never know what is. You will not be able to fight me at the last. No, you are the victim of his expectations, and I cannot free you by death - not yet. But we can turn that strength against him, and rid him of the Earth entirely.'

'Health' Covenant looked painfully up from the ground. 'You said health.'

'Whatever health you lack, groveller. Only pray to me. While I am still patient.'


But the voice's contempt cut too deep. Covenant't violence welled up in the wound. He began to fight. Heaving himself up off his knees, he thought. No, I'm not a groveller. With his teeth gritted to stop his trembling, he asked. 'Who are you.'

As if sensing its mistake, the voice became smoother. 'I am Lord Foul the Despiser' it said.


I've highlighted what I think the mistake might be. Which is really interesting! But I see that this has nothing to do with this thread.
I can't find the connection I was making earlier, between Time Travel, Kiril Threndor, and Kevin's Watch.....Faint
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Travel Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
How is time travel made possible in the Last Chrons, and why wasn't it possible before?

Quote:
Covenant muttered an obscenity under his breath. "You're right. We didn't break through time. We didn't threaten the Arch. Instead we sort of slipped between the cracks.


Those "cracks" are part of the Arch of Time, but they weren't always there. Time travel is made possible because of the damage wrought by wild magic, Joan, and caesures, creating the "cracks" which make it possible to "fold" time.


The Ranyhan make it possible. And of course, White Wild Magic.
It's so obvious it's almost unbelievable.
Covenant made a pact with the Great Horses of the Plain. And from then on the Ranyhan answered the call to a service equal to the Bloodguard (see: The Gilden Tree). Only, with the Ranyhan they travel the path of the white gold; the light of the Sun on the Land.

The Ranyhan can't be truly released from their service until the Staff of Law is complete.
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