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AATE, part 1, Chapter 3: Bargaining With Fate
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
.... does anyone in the company have any better ideas.....?

Precisely the question Covenant asked the company at the end of Chapter Two. No, they do not, therefore this needs to be done Linden's way.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Let the Ranyhyn decide!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with all of you. And I just want to state my opinion that Linden has a way of doing the "right" thing even if it is for the wrong reasons starting with becoming a doctor in the first place so that she could interact with and help people without having to invest herself emotionally. Think on that and be dismayed... Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chapter 3: Bargaining with Fate- Part 2

In which Orlion finally finishes dissecting the chapter, to the rejoice and satisfaction of all.

So now Linden is getting geared up to bargain with the Harrow (her fate, as I will expound upon later), but first, it’s been a while since the first part, so I’m going to point out a few things from the previous dissection that will play what I consider to be key roles in the following events.
1) Everyone, though different, is the same (or conversely, everyone, though the same, is different)
2) Acting out, even in desperation, can bring about desirable results and/or hope, since it is possible some outside force (one that is presently unobserved) may assist the act.
Linden is desperate, there should be little doubt of that. Her goal of rescuing her son seems just as far as before and now seems to have a time limit now that the Worm has set off to devour the life of the world. Right now, if she is to even embrace her son one last time before the world ends, it seems her only option is to bargain away the Staff and the Ring to the Harrow in exchange for being taken to Jeremiah.
The Masters attempt to intervene, however. Through Galt, they make their objection known to Covenant, accusing Linden of “rank madness” and surrendering all hope for postponing the apocalypse in exchange for her mere son. It is also apparent that the Masters do not trust the Harrow, believing that he and all Insequent, save the Mahdoubt, “serve only themselves” and are “cruel as the Elohim”.
In response, Covenant tells the Masters that Linden’s desire to ‘bargain’ with the Harrow “makes more sense than you think.” He informs that Masters that the party assembled isn’t “strong enough. I’m not all here. Kevin’s Dirt limits what she can do with her Staff. And she doesn’t really know how to use that ring. I wanted her to have it, but still- She isn’t the rightful wielder. As matter stand, we don’t have enough power. Or the right kind of power. We can’t stop the Worm. While we’re trying to figure out how to save the Earth- if that’s even possible- we might as well do something useful.”
Her, we see the two extreme views on Linden’s insistence to rescue Jeremiah, even after the Worm had been awoken. The Master’s believe such an action is too insignificant and irresponsible, that they should be fighting against their fate, against the Worm. No doubt they believe that hurling punches and kicks at the Worm would be more worthwhile (and more noble) than rescuing Jeremiah.
Covenant doesn’t share this view. He no doubt cares about the Land, but if fighting against the Worm is pointless, no matter how romantically noble it may be, to him it is pointless and doesn’t matter. What does matter is doing something that is within their ability. In that sense, if they succeed, they would still have a small triumphant in the face of total destruction, instead of just throwing away their lives.
Covenant than leads the Masters away with a promise to expound on the Theomach (he never does). Mahrtiir sends the Cords off to join them and the Giants send a representative so they don’t miss out on the fun that doesn’t happen.
At this point, Linden goes up to the Harrow, who smugly reminds her that he is the only one that can take her to her son. Linden realizes the cost of the Harrow’s help, and somewhat reluctant to enter into a bargain with the Harrow, though she is fated to do so if she wants to find her son. The Harrow knows this, as he gloats that he is the only being that knows where her son is and can take her there. “Lady, you have no path except to accept my aid in exchange for those instruments of power which I covet.”
Linden counters that she could refuse the Harrow’s help, this is an empty course though, as Linden is clearly committed to aiding Jeremiah as soon as possible. However, she tries to justify this possibility by calling into question the Harrow’s integrity. The Harrow, still sure in his position, responses “And must I therefore trust you? Must I convey you to your son in the fond hope that only then will you honor your own word? Lady, no. I have witnessed the extent of your folly. I will not assume that you are honorable merely because you wish me to do so.”
This argument strikes Linden in its veracity. After all, they (Linden and the Harrow) are both the same though different. They both have an all-consuming desire that they need the other to fulfill and they both are no more deserving of trust than the other. Linden wants to end this ‘impasse’, for she wants to find Jeremiah and will only give up the Staff and ring if she is certain that the Harrow will hold up his end of the bargain.
To this, the Harrow, in the name of all the Insequent, pledges that he is “certain of your son’s covert, and that I am able to convey you to him. In exchange for your instruments of power, I will further avow that when I have effected your reunion with your child, I will return you wheresoever you desire. To reassure you, I once again adjure all of the Insequent to heed me. If I do not abide by this... oath, I pray that the vengeance of my people upon me will be both cruel and prolonged.”
Linden is about to surrender the ring and Staff when Liand interrupts, voicing a concern that once Linden relinquishes the Staff and ring, there will be no one else that can wield the power she could, lessening the chances of the Land’s survival. The Manethrall rebukes Liand for trying to interfere in the proceedings, and cites the absence of the Ranyhyn as proof of their faith in Linden’s choices. “She has followed her heart to our present straits, if she does not continue to do so, all that she has hazarded and lost will come to naught.”
Liand, rebuked, stops trying to influence Linden, and Linden is about to yield her insturments of power when a stranger on a “mangey, shovel-headed horse” arrives to interrupt the proceedings. Linden, in her desperation, made an attempt to bargain with the Harrow, hopeless as such a course seemed. And yet, this time, a wonder was wrought, for the Ardent had arrived.
The Ardent is a fat Insequent, clothed in various colored ribbons that seem to move of their accord, that seemed to be powerful enough to pester the Harrow himself. I’d like to note, however, that these ribbons do not seem to be the result of the Ardent’s own powers. Rather, the Ardent, given the authority of all the other Insequent, was sent to ensure that Linden determine what was encompassed by the Harrow’s recent oath and what wasn’t. Further, he is there to ensure that the oath isn’t fullfilled until Linden declared herself content. Based on this, one could view each ribband on the Ardent’s attire as representing an Insequent, all of which were desirous that this oath take place, as certain seers among them saw that the future hinged on the Harrow’s plans.
Linden would still have to give up her ring and staff, but she would be able to know exactly what the Harrow had hid from her in his initial arguments. The Harrow wished to trap the Worm, but would need to make use of Jeremiah’s power with consturcts to do so. Claiming secret knowledge, the Harrow asserts that he’s the only one that can do this... well... not quite. Turns out the Harrow would also be enlisting the health of the croyel that was feeding off of Jeremiah to accomplish this feat. In fact, possessing the Staff and ring was also meant as insurance that Linden would not be able to interfere in this plan.
Linden decides that the Harrow cannot have Jeremiah, that this wouldn’t be part of the bargain she’d make. Angered, the Harrow replies that he will abide by her interpretation, but that hers would be “ an empty triumph. When we have retrieved your son, the only powers which offer hope to the Earth will remain in my possession. You will strive as you may to free your son from the croyel. In that endeavor, I did not vow my aid. And when you have failed, as you must- when you stand powerless before the world’s doom- I will inquire if by chance you have reconsidered the terms of your ‘contentment’.”
Understanding this, Linden decides for a third time to relinquish the Staff and the ring to seal the agreement as she understood it. As it turns out, giving the Harrow the Staff was tougher on her than giving up the ring. This seems to have a bearing on what she is essentailly, and that what she was does not consist as much of Covenant as she or any reader might think.
Quote:
The Harrow’s glee as he grasped the Staff and held it high, brandishing it and Covenant’s ring like trophies, was too savage to be borne.
“Behold, my people!” he shouted at the stars. “Witness and tremble! Soon I will show myself the greatest of all Insequent, the greatest who has ever lived!”

And the Harrow’s relief and celebration echoed and event from thousands of years before when
Quote:
Covenant lift the ring once more as if his last fears were gone. With her own ears, she heard the savage relief of Lord Foul’s laughter as he claimed his triumph. Heat and despair seemed to close over her like the lid of a coffin.
[Foul] raised one hand like a smear across her sight. In his grasp, the band began to blaze. His shout gathered force until she feared it would shatter the mountain.
“Here at last I hold possession of all life and Time forever! Let my Enemy look to his survival and be daunted! Freed of my gaol and torment, I will rule the cosmos!”

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Covenant's reaction to Linden's decision to bargain with the Harrow is something we have actually seen him do before except it was him making the decision. When he chose to save the girl with the snakebite over the whole of the Land it was the same thing. He needed to do what he could do in the moment rather than worry about what he might be able to do in the long run.

Orlion, I also liked that you pointed out that Linden had a way harder time giving up the staff than the ring. That stood out to me as an important thing as well. I will go one further in saying that it shows that Linden is not only forging her own separate identity from Covenant but she is further accepting her ties and importance to the Land and the powers that she has created within the structure of the Land. She is truly beginning to realize the magnitude of her responsibility not just to Jeremiah but to the Land as a whole.

Nice Job.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously the Ardent grows beyond his initial simple purpose of ensuring that the bargain that Linden strikes with the Harrow is one that she fully understands - but I couldn't help thinking, as I read that section, that all she really needed was a good lawyer....

Clause 1: In consideration of Linden Avery relinquishing the Staff of Law and White Gold Ring (as defined in Appendix 1) to the Harrow, the Harrow hereby agrees and undertakes:

(a) to convey Linden Avery, and any of her companions that she may reasonably require to accompany her, to the place where Jeremiah Avery is located

(b) once Linden and Jeremiah have been reunited, henceforth to convey them (and their companions) promptly to a place of her choosing.

Clause 2: The Harrow hereby undertakes further that he will make no attempts to interfere in the well being of the said Jeremiah or to utilise any of the powers of Jeremiah without Linden's approval (such approval not to be unreasonably withheld).

Clause 3: The parties agree that any dispute over the terms of this contract or their application to any situation shall be referred for determination exclusively to the Ardent (acting as agent on behalf of the people known as the Insequent as a whole).
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“But if you are slain….!” Pahni moaned.
“If I am slain,” he replied so tenderly that Linden’s heart lurched, “you will remain to serve the Land, and the Ranyhyn, and the Ringwielder as you must. My love will abide with you. Grief is strength. The use that you will make of it vindicates me.”
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
Obviously the Ardent grows beyond his initial simple purpose of ensuring that the bargain that Linden strikes with the Harrow is one that she fully understands - but I couldn't help thinking, as I read that section, that all she really needed was a good lawyer....

Clause 1: In consideration of Linden Avery relinquishing the Staff of Law and White Gold Ring (as defined in Appendix 1) to the Harrow, the Harrow hereby agrees and undertakes:

(a) to convey Linden Avery, and any of her companions that she may reasonably require to accompany her, to the place where Jeremiah Avery is located

(b) once Linden and Jeremiah have been reunited, henceforth to convey them (and their companions) promptly to a place of her choosing.

Clause 2: The Harrow hereby undertakes further that he will make no attempts to interfere in the well being of the said Jeremiah or to utilise any of the powers of Jeremiah without Linden's approval (such approval not to be unreasonably withheld).

Clause 3: The parties agree that any dispute over the terms of this contract or their application to any situation shall be referred for determination exclusively to the Ardent (acting as agent on behalf of the people known as the Insequent as a whole).


Ha, exactly Barnetto. It was obvious that the Harrow was taking too much glee in the bargain - he had to be getting one over on her. Yay, Ardent!

I also like Orlion's point about the Harrow's reaction to the ring echoing Lord Foul's. He always seemed dickish and menacing, but that reaction to power, and his clear desire to own that power and the title of "the greatest" is more important to him than saving the Land, really. It's a means to an end for him, which is not how good is accomplished in the Land.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not accomplished by relinquishing your "rightful" power either. I know this can be argued by the ending of the second chrons but Cov only released his power to Foul knowing in his heart that Foul could not use it for the intent he wanted it for. It's like me saying, "Here, use my computer" while not telling you that in order to use it you have to have the same fingerprints as me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So " Bargaining With Fate"..is about coming to the Harrows eventuality,,or acquiescing to the " Love" of .." She could not have abandoned so much of herself for any cause except Jeremiah." ..? The author's list of adjectives describing The Harrow in chapter 3 make it even more difficult to take the Harrows so called Triumphal Glee. But,,what we know of the Staff and Ring makes it even more difficult to envision The Harrow's claim of Greatest Ever.

The bargaining splits fine hairs here.Like walking a tight rope, one mis step and its failure. What is fascinating,,is the Harrows pretense. He will get Linden there, but..He is Not it.

As to things " spiritual"...seems to me the author hints on some New Testament concepts here and ..as noted by others,, turns the spiritual,,the Love., back to the individual, Linden.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
So " Bargaining With Fate"..is about coming to the Harrows eventuality,,or acquiescing to the " Love" of .." She could not have abandoned so much of herself for any cause except Jeremiah." ..? The author's list of adjectives describing The Harrow in chapter 3 make it even more difficult to take the Harrows so called Triumphal Glee. But,,what we know of the Staff and Ring makes it even more difficult to envision The Harrow's claim of Greatest Ever.

The bargaining splits fine hairs here.Like walking a tight rope, one mis step and its failure. What is fascinating,,is the Harrows pretense. He will get Linden there, but..He is Not it.

As to things " spiritual"...seems to me the author hints on some New Testament concepts here and ..as noted by others,, turns the spiritual,,the Love., back to the individual, Linden.


Spoiler:
The Harrow was quite a disappointment, eh? His only contribution was knowing where Jeremiah would be - the rest he failed at, miserably.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cameraman Jenn wrote:
It's not accomplished by relinquishing your "rightful" power either. I know this can be argued by the ending of the second chrons but Cov only released his power to Foul knowing in his heart that Foul could not use it for the intent he wanted it for. It's like me saying, "Here, use my computer" while not telling you that in order to use it you have to have the same fingerprints as me.


And in this, we see another similarity between Linden and Covenant. They are both sacrificed a power that can be said to be 'a part of themselves' in order to assist others dear to them. In Linden's case, of course, we don't have that 'rightful owner of the Staff' conundrum that we have with Covenant's ring.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant help but be reminded from the previous books that all that power makes you powerless. Its either too much or too little and no one can see the ends of all things. (although maybe TC could have while he was part of the arch of time)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Slowly catching up. August vacations don't help. Also, replies to what others wrote follow my comments.)

Good lead, Orlion. Even with "eventually". Smile You have provoked some good discussion here.

Well, if the last chapter was about explaining why Linden decided to deal with the Harrow, this chapter is about explaining why it will work in the end.

Liand, who has always had Linden's back, starts it off.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"Can any being or power aver with certainty that your folly will not be transformed to hope by the succor of some lore or theurgy" - he referred to Covenant with a glance - "which we cannot foresee?"

It's not a promise of hope. But it's a reminder that anything is possible. The destruction of the world, even now, is not a done deal. And why mention this if it means nothing?

Linden doubters will swoop on her admission that she might have foreseen the outcome. And Donaldson throws in a "and she did not forgive" to feed the crows.

But the person she won't forgive is herself. She won't forgive herself for thinking that "she was nothing without Covenant". She won't forgive herself for being incapable of rescuing Jeremiah. She doesn't have any hope left, and blames herself for it seeming to be all gone.

And yet,

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"But you’re still right. There are always surprises. And sometimes they help."

There is more. There is talk about the Creator, and the old man in the ochre robe. About how they are missing elements as things unfold. But Stave wonders,

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"Ur-Lord, is it conceivable that the Creator has forsaken the Chosen and the Earth because he is no longer needed?"

... “Ur-Lord,” he insisted, “is it conceivable that the Creator’s abandonment benefits his creation?”

Again, this is not a promise. But an idea that can blossom into one. The fact that Stave even suggests it means that the author wants us to think about the possibility. And that means that there is a significant chance that this is in fact what is going on.

But finding Jeremiah is not just something to do to kill time until the World is devoured. Mahrtiir reminds us why Linden must do this.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"Liand," said the Manethrall more firmly, "desist. Every friend of the Ringthane shares your apprehensions. Yet this choice is hers, not ours. And there lives no parent among the Ramen who would not choose as she does."

Bluntly: no parent can be true to themselves and abandon their child to kidnappers. It doesn't matter if the fate of the world rests in the balance. What matters is, if they put rescuing their child second place to something else, they destroy themselves from the inside.

And the Manethrall gives us something else to consider.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"Only the opposition of the Ranyhyn would suffice to deter us - and behold!" He gestured around the vale. "They have departed. By this token is their faith in the Ringthane confirmed."

According to the Ramen, who we must trust as experts in the matter, the Ranyhyn condone Linden's decision.

But it is the Harrow himself who brings us the spark of actual, real hope.

Back when we first met the Harrow, and he was trying to destroy Linden, I had remarked that he seemed like a man who believed he was saving the world by wiping Linden's mind and taking the ring and the Staff. He confirms this again in this chapter.

In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
[The Ardent said] "You will satisfy her, or you will quell your hunger for her instruments of power."

"If I do so," the Harrow protested hotly, "the Earth entire must perish."

[...] it is necessary to the salvation of the Earth that I possess your Staff and the white gold ring, and that you do not.”

So, he believes that he needs Linden's talismans to save the Earth.

This is explained in more detail, at the Ardent's prodding.
In Against All Things Ending was wrote:
"Lady -" The Harrow hesitated briefly; glanced at the Ardent. Then he shrugged again. "It is my intent to wield both Law and wild magic in your son’s service. With such forces at his command, he will possess might sufficient to devise a gaol into which the Worm must enter, and from which it will be unable to emerge. This you cannot accomplish in my stead."

BINGO.

I didn't see this on my first reading, but on my second, everything fell together. Follow me here.

- Jeremiah can cage the Worm and save the world.
- Jeremiah can't cage the worm until Linden rescues him.
- Linden can't rescue him until the Harrow brings her to him.
- The Harrow won't bring her to him unless she yields up her ring and Staff.
- Linden would not yield up her ring and her staff unless she has no hope.

... and who maneuvered Linden into a situation where she has no hope? The Timewarden. (See my comments chapter one.)

Don't you love it when a plan comes together?

Do you not believe that this is a possibility? I went through some lengths in the first chapter to point out that the Timewarden had the perspective to do this kind of plotting. Lord Foul level plotting, except on the good side. The kind of plotting the Dead did when they gave Covenant Vain. It does't require the ability to see the future, but to understand deeply what people are capable of.

As far as I am concerned, Linden is doing just what the Timewarden planned for her to do. "Do any of you have a better idea?" And so it's all going to work out in the end. "It makes more sense than you think."

The Harrow. Aptly named, for he parted Linden from what she would otherwise not ever part from.

Cameraman Jenn wrote:
When he [Covenant] chose to save the girl with the snakebite over the whole of the Land it was the same thing.

Absolutely. And Mhoram said, essentially, that the Land cannot be destroyed by such decisions. Which is essentially the same thing as Berek said in the previous chapter. As if to remind us of this at just this time. I think that these are wonderful, valid clues.

Orlion wrote:
And the Harrow’s relief and celebration echoed an event from thousands of years before

So true. But could we believe in the importance of the ring if anyone did anything less?

Cameraman Jenn wrote:
And I just want to state my opinion that Linden has a way of doing the "right" thing even if it is for the wrong reasons

Those is Roger's words. Don't believe Roger. I prefer to believe Berek and Mhoram. Linden does the "right" thing when she is true to herself and what she believes in. While it may not be as true in our world as in the Land: when you do that, things are going to work out.

(bossk, you said the same thing as that, earlier. As did Soulbiter. I agree completely.)

Barnetto wrote:
She carries the burden of knowing that she is very much capable of doing the wrong thing and that she has done the wrong thing in the past - and she is still tortured by this fact and, deep down, suspects that she herself is capable of evil.

This is what Covenant has endured and come through in the Chronicles.

Her self-image is very different from the image that the company have of her - she knows her deepest soul and she still fears herself in a way that the company do not.

This is not the way I see it at all, Barnetto. What Covenant went through and learned, and Linden too, is that we all have an evil part inside us. The trick is to accept it. It's a strength if used at the right time; it's a weakness if at the wrong.

Linden, even in this chapter, doesn't "fear herself". The author went to some lengths to show that she feels dismay, but not despair. And that she sees no hope, and holds herself responsible for there being no hope.

But she thought it through, and made a bold, gutsy decision. That's not someone who fears herself. That's only someone with regrets. The world is lost, might as well make the best of it and hug my son before we die.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
This is not the way I see it at all, Barnetto. What Covenant went through and learned, and Linden too, is that we all have an evil part inside us. The trick is to accept it. It's a strength if used at the right time; it's a weakness if at the wrong.

Linden, even in this chapter, doesn't "fear herself". The author went to some lengths to show that she feels dismay, but not despair. And that she sees no hope, and holds herself responsible for there being no hope.

But she thought it through, and made a bold, gutsy decision. That's not someone who fears herself. That's only someone with regrets. The world is lost, might as well make the best of it and hug my son before we die.


I quite agree that Linden has done the very best that could have been expected of her in all the multilayered, counterveiling, mystifying circumstances. I have every sympathy for her plight (even if it may not come across that way).

Her adopted son has been stolen from her and is in the "captivity" of a hideous blood sucking beast - she has been shot and almost certainly killed in the real world - she has the murderous Roger, the questionable Harrow and other powerful enemies after her - she's nearly been murdered by Longwrath, eaten by skurj - her main hope, resurrecting TC, hasn't quite worked out as she'd hoped...and she's seen herself confirm some of LF's worst predictions for her.

I don't subscribe to the Linden is a whinger line - bejesus, the mere fact she is still standing up making decisions is a testament to her.

But I think there is a difference between her decision making and TC's. If they both doubt themselves (they do), then the consequences of the self-doubt are different. Linden is less able to deal with that self-doubt that TC, it seems to me. She can be periodically traumatised by the fear of what her decisions will lead to - even if they may have been the only ones open to her - in a way that TC isn't. (Perhaps he has a mental equivalent of leprosy that enables him to ameliorate his sensitivity to such possible outcomes - though I don't think so.)

She doesn't yet feel "despair" - she isnt' deliberately trying to put the Land out of its misery in the way Kevin did - but she is being forced to make decision (often the only ones open to her - "do any of you have any better ideas") that she knows might turn out badly and she finds it difficult to cope with that (inevitably!)

But personally I do think that she still "fears herself" to some degree - she has embarked on a road that goes in one direction only - save Jerry - it's quite, quite understandable and justifiable - she has hardened herself to that particular course of action (and resurrecting TC as a means to help her) - but her history still weighs on her and the blame her father placed on her is still, it seems to me, lurking in the background - she can't quite trust herself even when she may feel that she is doing the only thing possible - to me, she is still a bit like TC in the Second Chronicles when he is infected by poison. The poison (like her self-fear) can be pushed down and out of the way from time to time, but then will occassionally rear its ugly head in times of acute stress.

I think Linden still ideally needs some moment, like Covenant's conflagration in the Banefire, to utterly purge and purify her of that self-fear. (Or alternatively she just needs TC (and Jerry if he can be freed) to take over the decision making and to love her.)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice reply, Barnetto.

It's just that, to me, "fear yourself" means that you don't trust yourself to do good things, or to make good decisions. Sure, Linden thinks that what she HAS done was a mistake. And she worries that OTHERS will think that what she WILL DO is a mistake. But SHE HERSELF does not think that what she WILL DO is a mistake. Or a bad decision. Or wrong.

She fears that the other's won't trust her. And that they'd be justified not to. And that they might try to stop her. And they'd be justified to try.

But she still trusts herself.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend - I'm sure Covenant as the timewarden had a lot to do with what is happening in this Last Chronicle but we should remember that Lord Foul is still the instigator of the world shaking dilemmas the company is facing.

It was ever the way of the heroes in the Chronicles not to try and stop the plans of Lord Foul but to face them and accept them and still miraculously find a road to victory by, I think, using Lord Foul's blind side to turn Foul's plans on him. It's a perfect example of Orilion's idea that everyone is the same in some way and a plan for ruin one character hatches is the road to salvation for another character)

This time is no different. The Worm is not roused because Covenant wanted it to wake, it was all Lord Foul's plan to end Creation, but he will (or should we say Linden through his planning will) find the way to turn it into a positive thing.


I don't know if it's because I thought about Eremis (from Donaldson's Mordant Need series) recently, but the Harrow kept reminding me of him. They both have that same eager, blade-thin humor. And they both can't face a joke when it's about them.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that we haven't seen Foul's hand in all this yet, unless it's that he's succeeded in rousing the worm.

I just find it compelling that this time the Timewarden may be playing at the same level as Foul. So rather than one or two mere mortals trying to foil Foul's plan by pitting their emotions and capacity for desperation against his chess-master plotting, we have someone who can chess-master plot right back at him. (Well, in the Second Chronicles we had the Dead and the ur-viles, but they were on the sideline really.)

If the reason you need to enter Foul's snares is that it's the only real way to discover what they are thoroughly enough to counter them ... well, maybe we've broken the premise that requires that this be true.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I agree that we haven't seen Foul's hand in all this yet, unless it's that he's succeeded in rousing the worm.

I just find it compelling that this time the Timewarden may be playing at the same level as Foul. So rather than one or two mere mortals trying to foil Foul's plan by pitting their emotions and capacity for desperation against his chess-master plotting, we have someone who can chess-master plot right back at him. (Well, in the Second Chronicles we had the Dead and the ur-viles, but they were on the sideline really.)

If the reason you need to enter Foul's snares is that it's the only real way to discover what they are thoroughly enough to counter them ... well, maybe we've broken the premise that requires that this be true.


Come on, he had a hand in practically everything bad that's happening in the last chronicles:
He told Kestenessen how he could escape his prison creating the whole Skurj problem (and Esmer to some degree)
He's the patron and mastermind behind Roger,
He's the enabler of Jeremiah's Kroyel,
He's probably the one who came up with the Kevin's Dirt idea
and as you said, he orchestrated the rousing of the Worm and the weakening of Covenant's powers.

Covenant was obviously failing to counter Foul's plots when he stood as his equal in the Timewarden position. We think he decides to try and fight Foul from the ground as a mortal. It might be an act of desperation though. It's the only option with any hope left in it. He's facing a pretty big drawback in this role. His knowledge escapes him. So what it comes down to is his abilities as an ordinary mortal, the scraps of knowledge he manages to retain (I can't decide how incidental the division between lost and retained knowledge is*) and the knowledge he imparted to others beforehand that could make them act as he wants them to.

So basically he came up with a plan, he put the pieces in place and now he has to hope they wouldn't deviate from it since he has limited abilities to correct them if they do. An act of faith in other words.

Why do the heroes always need to enter Foul's snares and let them reach fruition? Donaldson of course wants to write about these horrors and having the heroes foil these plots in the bud would prevent him from doing it but maybe it's also because the act of accepting the pains of the evils inflected on them empowers them in some ways. They have shown that they cannot be driven to despair even by the worst their enemy can inflict on them (something you can see in our own world today as well) which is very important for a metaphysical being like Foul. It's also the paved path to a major turning point for the better as well as for the worse



(*) Time after time in the Chronicles we saw character gain or should we say earn knowledge and power. Here for the first time we see the opposite. Covenant relinquishes the powers and knowledge he gained at the end of WGW when he became an immortal Timewarden, just like Linden relinquishes her right to her Staff of Law and Ring. But is it just a loss or is a commensurate gain given to them in exchange? [/quote]
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:
I agree that we haven't seen Foul's hand in all this yet, unless it's that he's succeeded in rousing the worm.
Come on, he had a hand in practically everything bad that's happening in the last chronicles:

I agree completely, and I may have made a hurried mistake there.

But then again, I was thinking specifically about what Foul might be trying to manipulate Covenant or Linden into doing that would serve him, rather than what else he might be doing outside of that. I probably didn't make that clear.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
So basically he came up with a plan, he put the pieces in place and now he has to hope they wouldn't deviate from it since he has limited abilities to correct them if they do. An act of faith in other words.

Yes. But that's a good thing. Smile

I tend to view his resurrection as I view his death in the Second Chronicles - a sacrifice which enables victory. And a sacrifice that wasn't made without a plan in mind.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
(*) Time after time in the Chronicles we saw character gain or should we say earn knowledge and power. Here for the first time we see the opposite. Covenant relinquishes the powers and knowledge he gained at the end of WGW when he became an immortal Timewarden, just like Linden relinquishes her right to her Staff of Law and Ring. But is it just a loss or is a commensurate gain given to them in exchange?

I think that's a real good question when you consider that each Chronicles tries to say something new about Power and about the way Covenant deals with Power. First he had to allow himself to have Power. Then he had to admit Power was not enough. What's the next -- and last -- stage? Letting it all go? Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:08 am    Post subject: Re: AATE, part 1, Chapter 3: Bargaining With Fate Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:

Quote:
And she did not forgive.


Not herself, not ever herself for all her failures in the Last Chronicles, and, it can be assumed, the failure to prevent Roger from kidnapping Joan and Jeremiah, from curing Joan of her madness, and from being able to reach Jeremiah. Indeed, to Linden, she has a lot to be guilty of.


I really hope that I am not displaying my stupidity for all to see.... but WOW. This was a huge revelation to me Orlion. Every time Stave would say "And she does not forgive" or Linden would think to herself "And I do not forgive", I just always took that as Linden does not forgive Foul, Roger or the croyel for what has been done to Jeremiah. I just took that at face value as reminding the reader of her anger towards and her desire to make her enemies pay. I never looked at it as Linden not forgiving herself. That is brilliant and makes the words have so much more power and meaning! Of course she doesn't forgive herself! Of course she blames herself for not preventing Jeremiah's kidnapping in the first place, for failing to save Jeremiah in Melenkurion Skyweir, for giving Joan her ring, for bringing Covenant back in a broken state, for waking the Worm.

Of course she doesn't forgive her enemies, but more important is she can't forgive herself for her perceived failures. I feel stupid for not seeing this before. Sheesh.

Orlion wrote:

Based on this, one could view each ribband on the Ardent’s attire as representing an Insequent, all of which were desirous that this oath take place, as certain seers among them saw that the future hinged on the Harrow’s plans.


Again, you are bloody brilliant! I flipping love this idea. Each Insequent has his or her own unique knowledge and powers. How cool to think that each individual ribband is an extension of the knowledge and power of the Insequent it represents. That makes the Ardent even more interesting to me than he already was.


Orlion wrote:


Quote:
The Harrow’s glee as he grasped the Staff and held it high, brandishing it and Covenant’s ring like trophies, was too savage to be borne.
“Behold, my people!” he shouted at the stars. “Witness and tremble! Soon I will show myself the greatest of all Insequent, the greatest who has ever lived!”

And the Harrow’s relief and celebration echoed and event from thousands of years before when
Quote:
Covenant lift the ring once more as if his last fears were gone. With her own ears, she heard the savage relief of Lord Foul’s laughter as he claimed his triumph. Heat and despair seemed to close over her like the lid of a coffin.
[Foul] raised one hand like a smear across her sight. In his grasp, the band began to blaze. His shout gathered force until she feared it would shatter the mountain.
“Here at last I hold possession of all life and Time forever! Let my Enemy look to his survival and be daunted! Freed of my gaol and torment, I will rule the cosmos!”


When the Harrow held up the Staff and ring and became lost in his greed-fueled celebration, I was totally reminded of Foul's reaction to getting Covenant's ring in WGW.
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