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Sunder, Hollian, Anele inconsistency

 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Sunder, Hollian, Anele inconsistency Reply with quote

How did Anele end up being born in Mithil Stonedown? On pages 352-553 of White Gold Wielder, Donaldson writes:

Quote:
[Hollian speaking] "... We are sustained, and in some manner defined, by the sovereign Earthpower of the Andelainian Hills. Should we depart this region, we would not long endure among the living."

Linden saw that this was true. The strange gleam upon the Stonedownors was the same magic which had given Caer-Caveral's music its lambent strength. Sunder and Hollian were solid, physical, and whole. Yet in a special sense they had become beings of Earthpower--and they might easily die if they were cut off from their source.


And on page 351, Donaldson wrote:

Quote:

"You have said taht we are the future of the Land. It has become our wish to discover that future here. And to bear our son in Andelain."


Yet in Runes, Anele states that Sunder and Hollian came to Mithil Stonedown in order to have him, and that they traveled all over the Land, and lived very, very long lives. So how is this possible? It wasn't just Hollian's claim, Linden saw that it was true with her percipience. And it wasn't the Sunbane that created the obstacle (obviously overcome by Linden), because the Hills themselves were the source of Sunder/Hollian's ability to persist among the living, a source which could not sustain them if they were cut off from it.

So, was it the Staff of Law? How would that override the conditions Donaldson set out here? The magic which sustained them was similar to forestal magic. While the SoL might perform similar functions, wouldn't that require a constant output of power? And perhaps a constant input of will?

Did Donaldson ever address this in the text, and I'm forgetting? I couldn't find anything about it in the GI.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I would imagine that with out the Sunbane, the Andelain Earthpower was able to extend its influence to the rest of the land. Having the Staff of Law would probably help quicken the pace that this happened.

Realistically, I imagine it's a holdover of Donaldson wrapping everything up in case he never wrote the Last Chronicles.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, maybe. I realized later that it couldn't have been the SoL that made the difference, because Anele has been living without it for quite some time. Ending the Sunbane has nothing to do with the source of their being the And. Hills. I think it's just a mistake.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Anele follow his parents around various parts of the land to watch them help the healing process? That would imply to me that they could leave Andelain for at least a few weeks at a time or they would never get to some areas.

So perhaps they took one of those trips to give birth to Anele in Mithil Stonedown because ... I dunno, they felt like it.

Long story short, I think their definition of "not long endure" is a bit longer than most would assume that phrase to mean.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "source" was Earthpower, not Andelain. And with the Sunbane neutralized, Earthpower was the natural state of the Land; not to mention that the SoL was a tool of Earthpower. So after some time and healing had taken place, I'm sure they could have gone anywhere. and childbirth does not always take place when or where it is planned!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So both Hollian and Linden are wrong? Two people who are empowered by percipience and Earthpower can't be trusted to tell us the truth of their own impressions, even when those impressions concern deeply important truths to their very existence?

In my opinion, the text is crystal clear. Should we depart this region, we would not long endure among the living. If the explanations you all offer suffice, it would have been nice if they came from Donaldson, in the text itself. Without SRD explaining how that has been circumvented or revised, it's a mistake.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Context. At the time the statement was made, there was no Staff of Law, S&H were new to their clean power, and Andelain was the last buttress of Law and Earthpower in the Sunbane-ravaged land.

Following that, Linden had made the new Staff and healed the Sunbane. That changed everything. The Giants took the staff to S&H, who were then able to use it to continue the work of healing the land. No, they weren't perfect at it, as they had virtually no experience of true Health to guide them. Just their innate sense.

I'm sure they started with shoring up Andelain, and then extending into the surrounding territory. As their influence grew, so too did their ability to travel within its reach. There is no reason they could not have returned to Mithil as part of their travels well before the birth of Anele.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IS, I agree that something like that must have happened. The ending of the Sunbane could not have been enough. It must have required action from S&H. The And.Hills were always more "Earthpowerful" than the rest of the Land, even without the Sunbane or a Forestal. It wasn't the mere existence of Earthpower that sustained S&H, but the special, enhanced, reinforced Earthpower of the this "gem" of the Land which had been preserved by a Forestal--whose power still lingered after his death. Linden specifically says that the power which sustained S&H was the same magic which gave Caer-Caveral's music its power. And that's the magic which briefly sustained Andelain against the Sunbane after he was gone.

But if that's so, think about what you're saying ... within the span of 9 months (pregnancy), Sunder and Hollian were able to heal the Land to such an extent that the power which sustained their lives was extended by their hands from And.Hills all the way to Mithil--the edge of the Land. If that's the case, if they were so strong and successful that they could produce such widespread, fundamental healing so quickly, then there wouldn't have been much left for them to do in the many decades they lived and worked. If they could turn all the Land between Andelain and Mithil into the kind of place that could sustain them, by extending Andelain's uniquely enhanced version of Earthpower, then it's hard to imagine that all that region would have required any more healing from them.

On the other hand, if it was something nearly instantaneous, such as ending the Sunbane, then this also implies that there wouldn't have been much left for them to do after Linden's act of healing the Land, if it transformed the entire Land so that S&H could walk out of Andelain.

The more I think about it, if Earthpower (of the Hills) is what sustained them, and it took this magic because they were fundamentally the products of a broken law, then the Staff would seem to be entirely antithetical to their use, because the Staff supports Law. They are walking violations of Law (which is why they need Earthpower to sustain them), so the Staff would seem to be that last thing that would help them survive outside Andelain. In fact, if the Staff helped them survive, it would in effect be supporting a violation of Law!

Maybe I need to stop thinking about this. The more I do, the less sense it makes.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although the Staff supports the Law, once a law is broken, that break is to the fundamental nature of Earthpower, and therefore it is no longer antithetical to the purpose of the Staff. The Waynhim, as Made creatures, were still themselves not of the Law, thus the presence of the Staff was harmful to them.

The other element is, resurrection aside, Sunder and Hollian are natural creatures. Yes, they are sustained by Earthpower, but that can only be enhanced by the Staff. I suspect if they traveled with the staff, its own aura would be able to sustain them, just as it could work local negation of Kevin's Dirt.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also remember that Drool made the moon red WITH the Staff of Law before any Laws were broken.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drool also paid a heavy price for using the Staff in a way that was antithetical to its purpose, becoming quickly deformed and aged himself.

I could see how white gold might empower a Lawbreaker to continue his existence, but not the Staff. A broken Law is like a corruption of Earthpower; it's taking a natural thing and forcing it to be something other than it is. Remember, breaking Laws weakens the very fabric of the Land; it doesn't become the new "normal" or "natural." So the Staff sustaining S&H would be similar to the Staff supporting the Sunbane ... similar to the Banefire! After all, we know the Staff can support violations of the natural order, as with Drool's usage. So it's entirely possible for the Staff to be like the Banefire, in the wrong hands.

If S&H required special circumstances to sustain their existence, this means that breaking the Law of Life wasn't enough. Simply breaking a Law doesn't sufficiently alter the world to sustain a Lawbreaker or someone who only exists in virtue of that broken Law. Therefore, the broken Law doesn't become the new Order, which the Staff then naturally supports. A broken isn't natural ... no more than the Sunbane was a natural state. It's still a violation, even after the Law has been broken. Therefore, the Staff would be supporting a violation of Law, an unnatural state, in supporting Sunder/Hollian/Anele, if it's indeed the case that it took the Staff to do this.

However, as I said above, Anele gets along fine even in a world covered in Kevin's Dirt and in which the Staff doesn't exist. So even if we suppose that S&H used the STaff to alter the Land sufficiently to extend Caer-Caveral's special magic to Mithil (and beyond), that change has certainly been undone in the time of Runes, because the Staff no longer exists then and Earthpower is once again univerally corrupted by Kevin's Dirt. So how is Anele's life sustained in Runes?

No matter how you look at this, it's a big fat contradiction. There's no way around it.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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