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The Mahdoubt's Gown
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: The Mahdoubt's Gown Reply with quote

Just read part one in my Grand Re-read.

LOVE the Command scene. But somehow I find the following, when Linden sews a piece of her shirt to the Mahdoubt's gown, very moving. It speaks to me, the gratitude part, that the Mahdoubt's quest for knowledge as an Insequent comprises something of all the people she has helped. There is something very human, very like life about that.

It has always been one of the top scenes in all the Chronicles to stick with me.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That, and it establishes that the Insequent have very obscure motivations.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im gonna agree with you there. she may be the only insequent not entirely driven by their own greed and elevation. she is a great character.. maybe she is a bit odd but she is more human than most.

it seems like clothes mean a lot to the insequent

the Theomatch with his wrappings
the Harrow with his leather beaded jacket
the Mahdoubt's gown
the Ardents Ribbands

.. I love the insequent they are definitely my favorite addition to the third chronicles. they are all so interesting.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeta Prime wrote:

the Theomatch with his wrappings
the Harrow with his leather beaded jacket
the Mahdoubt's gown
the Ardents Ribbands


Now that you mention it, what is it with the Insequent and clothing? What they wear must somehow be related to their personality or their individual obsession/goal/quest....
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly their clothing is a metaphor or at least a signal that they are all unique to an above-normal degree.

Although with the Theomach there's the fact that he's hiding his identity from Linden, and so that may not be his normal attire.

Also, many Insequent seem to have some sort of time-based power. Mahdoubt can move through time, Theomach can see ahead in time, Vizard can slow down time for himself relative to others, and even the Harrow's power to unmake can be seen as reversing time.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Although with the Theomach there's the fact that he's hiding his identity from Linden, and so that may not be his normal attire.


Okay, so definitely something operatic at work here.

I never caught that with the Theomach before, that he was hiding his identity. Why would he do that...unless...in seeing his face he would be someone Linden would recognize? I am trying to recall...he teaches Berek about Earthpower, the Seven Words, and goes on to become the first Kenaustin, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Hashi, I believe that's the reason for hiding his identity. Linden would recognize him from the Isle.

We all use clothing to camouflage ourselves, to some extent. If you break it down to its most basic level, it's about hiding our animal nature, for our reproductive parts are the areas which even our skimpiest attire still hides. Nipples which have no reproductive function for men are the one taboo part of a woman's breast (of which most of the rest can be displayed even in the most formal of settings ... sideboobs, cleavage, no problem next to tuxedos on the red carpet).

So perhaps the Insequent are likewise displaying their "higher" being through their clothing, their learned lore and knowledge. Clearly, their clothing is related to their magic. And maybe there's an element of Elohim envy--beings against whom the Insequent measure themselves, and for whom appearance is even more under one's control.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think he's trying to hide from her.. I think that's just what he wears. and later he changes simply because the guardian of the one tree is always given a white robe.. as seen when brinn becomes the guardian..

I think there clothes represent their will to be select individuals. the last thing they want is to be uniform.. they pride themselves in being unique.
that's just the way I see it anyways ;D

and on the topic of the powers of the Theomatch.. couldn't he step between moments or something? kind of like he could slip between realities or something.. idk what im trying to say but if I recall he stopped time around himself and linden once.. and while fighting Brinn he seemed to vanish and warp as he fought.. at least something similar to that.. I think he had a lot of control over time. I just never understood why he didn't just smash Roger as soon as he intervened with his designs.


Last edited by Rau Le Creuset on Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I never caught that with the Theomach before, that he was hiding his identity. Why would he do that...unless...in seeing his face he would be someone Linden would recognize? I am trying to recall...he teaches Berek about Earthpower, the Seven Words, and goes on to become the first Kenaustin, right?

I believe that's basically it ... if Linden realizes who he is while she is in her own past, it could have consequences that would break the Arch of Time.

In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
"Then I don't suppose that you'll tell me how you're going to 'humiliate' the Elohim yourself?"

"I will not." Her tone did not ruffle the Theomach's aura. "Were I to do so,
you would feel the Arch of Time tremble to its roots. The Halfhand should not speak as he does."

Although one cannot help but wonder if he was also preventing Linden from knowing his true name (and thereby being able to compel him).

In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
"'The Theomach' seems a bit unwieldy," Linden began. "Do you have a name?"

"I do. But it is not for your use."

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Clearly, their clothing is related to their magic. And maybe there's an element of Elohim envy--beings against whom the Insequent measure themselves, and for whom appearance is even more under one's control.


I don't know...I think the distinct individual clothing is just another effect of their basic uniqueness...it grows from the same psychological cause as their singular knowledge pursuits/drives.
Though several of them obviously imbue/channel through attire/accoutrement...so maybe what I'm thinking isn't all that different from what you said.

I like Elo envy...made me chuckle. But it might be a reaction against Elo-form. The Elo are fluid...can appear like anything, even if they have a preferred form. The Inseq. are very particular, definite.

Yet there's certainly something yin/yang-ish between Elo/Inseq. Like the symbol, at the extremes they flow into the other.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

I believe that's basically it ... if Linden realizes who he is while she is in her own past, it could have consequences that would break the Arch of Time.


I had just never thought of that before, or forgot about it. I really should reread the books but I know that I am not going to before TLD comes out.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had also forgotten that the Theomach becomes the Guardian... where was that again?

The Mahdoubt puts me in mind of older people who start pack-ratting things, though they may not have done so in the past. Each thing (no matter how small its value) reminds them of a person, a memory, an emotional attachment. Donaldson took that (don't we all know someone like that?) and transformed something so poignantly human into magic. Wow.

I really had forgotten how good Fatal Revenant is.

SRD has an unusual take on clothing. Even Covenant's jeans and t-shirt are iconic. It's hard to imagine how worn and faded Linden's shirt and jeans are by now, how those socks and boots must be just rotten... yet they become representative. She could have asked for a tunic at Revelstone, surely.

The Haruchai have their vellum tunics; the Giants their stone armor; the Woodhelven and Stonedownors their homespun; the Unfettered their nondescript robes. It makes sense that the Insequent would have their odd outfits with an almost Elohim-like way of expressing who they are.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
Even Covenant's jeans and t-shirt are iconic.


It's all the grass stains that mark his clothing as if they were a map. That happened to Linden's clothing, as well, in RotE. I had always presumed that that must have some sort of meaning but I could never figure out what it was.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
deer of the dawn wrote:
Even Covenant's jeans and t-shirt are iconic.


It's all the grass stains that mark his clothing as if they were a map. That happened to Linden's clothing, as well, in RotE. I had always presumed that that must have some sort of meaning but I could never figure out what it was.


I wonder on that thing a lot. Maybe it becomes more/explicit in Last Dark...but I'm semi-content with the interp. I came to, that it is the visible marks of the Land paralleling the internal/psycho-spiritual marks of the Land on the outsiders. Spoiler:
The mated opposite of Linden's "mark" on the Staff/earthpower.


Not sure that's spoiler. Did it in case.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildwood mentioned it when she and the Mahdoubt paid him a visit. They meant something to him, even if it was just the "fecundity" they represented. It is mentioned that it didn't wash out when she returned to Revelstone.

This, at the end of the description of the Harrow:
In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
The combined effect suggested that his garments were not mere clothing: they expressed his identity.


I was thinking how the emphasis on the strangeness of the clothing, and the role it plays for the Insequent, is also a signal to the reader that these are very different people from what we've seen before. The descriptions are much more detailed than those of the Lords' robes or the Giants' hauberks. Likewise their lore is much more advanced, and evidently, their role in the Land's story much greater than we suspected anyone's was.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Ode to the Mahdoubt's clothing, and other idiosyncracies [reposted]. (You all know Rod Stewart's Maggie May, right?)
    Hey there Mahdoubt I really donít know what to make of you.
    The Haruchai shrug and say youíre just here to bring me food.
    Your clothes are kind of a flub, and your arms are rather chub.
    Oh Mahdoubt, are you from Lunch Lady Land?
    I met you in Revelstone, youíre such a mysterious crone.
    Youíre quite a puzzle and thatís what really irks.

    The Landís health-sight when its on your face really shows youíre tweaked.
    But that donít worry me none - itís Mahrtiir whose really freaked.
    I laughed at your crows nest hair, and ate all your meager fair.
    Oh, Mahdoubt, what is your numinousness for?
    I was saved from the Illearth Stone, just to get stuck in Revelstone.
    You boggle my mind, and thatís a tease I could do without.

    All I needed was a maid to make the room I had.
    But you warned me of love, and mother itís my love I need so bad.
    Howíd you know my guy was here? Letís face it, thatís a little queer.
    Oh Mahdoubt, your eyes are more of an eye sore.
    I wound up in Revelstone, cause Stave had to be a bone.
    You mystify me, I couldnít get you if I tried.

    I suppose I could write you off as the cleaning crew.
    Or imagine the Creator has some sort of plan for you.
    Or maybe youíre an Elohim gal, in need of a mortal pal.
    Oh Mahdoubt, explain what happened to your face!
    You like to say ďAssuredlyĒ, and you know when I get thirsty.
    You stole the show, but who are you anyway?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Head Banger Hysterical Cheers Good Post
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

way, lovely singing Smile

Vraith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
deer of the dawn wrote:
Even Covenant's jeans and t-shirt are iconic.


It's all the grass stains that mark his clothing as if they were a map. That happened to Linden's clothing, as well, in RotE. I had always presumed that that must have some sort of meaning but I could never figure out what it was.


I wonder on that thing a lot. Maybe it becomes more/explicit in Last Dark...but I'm semi-content with the interp. I came to, that it is the visible marks of the Land paralleling the internal/psycho-spiritual marks of the Land on the outsiders. Spoiler:
The mated opposite of Linden's "mark" on the Staff/earthpower.


Not sure that's spoiler. Did it in case.


So, how does this work with Lord Mhoram also getting the marks?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Effaeldm wrote:

So, how does this work with Lord Mhoram also getting the marks?

I don't think I know what you're talking about? Probably just a memory failure. Which marks, when from what?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
An Ode to the Mahdoubt's clothing, and other idiosyncracies [reposted]. (You all know Rod Stewart's Maggie May, right?)


That is amazing. *applaud*

The map-like marks on Linden's clothing helped her find her way out of the Lurker's induced hallucination. I don't recall Mhoram receiving those marks, either. In which book was this mentioned?

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What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

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