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I liked being in the Land again, but wish the story....
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rbyrd2531
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: I liked being in the Land again, but wish the story.... Reply with quote

Had been more true to it's own beginnings.

The series already raised flags with me because of seemingly small things.
Suggesting that the masters had failed the Stonedowners because someone like Liand could have been a Groveler on the tradition of the Land if he had not been kept in the dark.

But really this should have said .Rhadhamaerl....a Groveler was a wielder of the Sunbane and was nothing to aspire to be.

At the end, when Jeremiah suggests he can tell the masters where to find Kevin's Wards, it seems to forget that Lord Mhoram had found other ways to earthpower that did not endanger the Oath of Peace, which was not compatible with Kevin's Lore.

Things I was glad to see.......

Ranyhyn ! ..the Giants again, although character development was not anything like it was in the Foamfollower and Pitchwife characters.
I was glad the Urviles and Waynhim had a positive end to their long suffering.

I am probably too harsh...but the earlier series were such works of art!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At the end, when Jeremiah suggests he can tell the masters where to find Kevin's Wards, it seems to forget that Lord Mhoram had found other ways to earthpower that did not endanger the Oath of Peace, which was not compatible with Kevin's Lore.


But did he? I know he certainly announced the attempt at the end of The Power That Preserves, but I don't remember it being clear on the outcome of this, except that whatever the outcome was, it enable the Sunbane to come into existence. So perhaps whatever the outcome was, it was ineffectual.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were apparently thousands of years ? Where the new world flourished...,but one of the Ravers had twisted the new world over time.
But every time the land was saved, it was only by temporary means.
So a couple thousand years of prosperity was not bad

In either case, it was known that Kevin's wards were not the answer since they didn't help him
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

from the Wounded Land.....

"After the destruction of Foul’s Creche, the Council of Lords had prospered in Revelstone for centuries. Led first by High Lord Mhoram, then by successors equally dedicated and idealistic, the Council had changed the thrust and tenor of its past service. Mhoram had learned that the Lore of the Seven Wards, the knowledge left behind by Kevin Landwaster, contained within it the capacity to be corrupted. Fearing a renewal of Desecration, he had turned his back on that Lore, thrown the krill into Glimmermere , and commenced


Guided by his decision, Councils for generations after him had used and served, performing wonders . Trothgard had been brought back to health. All the old forests— Grimmerdhore, Morinmoss, Garroting Deep, Giant Woods— had thrived to such an extent that Caerroil Wildwood, the Forestal of Garroting Deep, had believed his labor ended at last, and had passed away; and even the darkest trees had lost much of their enmity for the people of the Land. All the war-torn wastes along Landsdrop between Mount Thunder and the Colossus of the Fall had been restored to life. The perversity of Sarangrave Flat had been reduced; and much had been done to ease the ruin of the Spoiled Plains.

Donaldson, Stephen R. (2012-06-13). Wounded Land (Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) (p. 331)." .
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: I liked being in the Land again, but wish the story.... Reply with quote

rbyrd2531 wrote:
Had been more true to it's own beginnings.

The series already raised flags with me because of seemingly small things.
Suggesting that the masters had failed the Stonedowners because someone like Liand could have been a Groveler on the tradition of the Land if he had not been kept in the dark.

But really this should have said .Rhadhamaerl....a Groveler was a wielder of the Sunbane and was nothing to aspire to be.

At the end, when Jeremiah suggests he can tell the masters where to find Kevin's Wards, it seems to forget that Lord Mhoram had found other ways to earthpower that did not endanger the Oath of Peace, which was not compatible with Kevin's Lore.

Things I was glad to see.......

Ranyhyn ! ..the Giants again, although character development was not anything like it was in the Foamfollower and Pitchwife characters.
I was glad the Urviles and Waynhim had a positive end to their long suffering.

I am probably too harsh...but the earlier series were such works of art!


Jeremiah probably had no clue about Mhoram's pledge. He just knew where these hidden powers were, why woul dhe hesitate to reveal them?

As for the Graveller thing (note: not Groveller! Although Foul would like that), the term is much newer, would even the Masters remember the old term? What was it, 10 thousand years since the Rhadhamaerl had existed?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the spelling mistake...my kindle autocorrects what I type and I don't always catch it. (Although I assure you that a Graveller (one who sacrifices the blood of innocents to wield the Sunbane) pleased Lord Foul just as much as a Groveller would)

I won't continue to argue the points...just wanted to share my views.
In my opinion, Linden would never have used an argument for the lack of Gravellers against the Masters. Covenant had told her how the Land was before the Sunbane.

If Jeremiah knew everything the raver did, he also knew the history of the Land and what really needed to be restored to the people was what they had lost. The lore of the Lillianrill and the Rhadhamaerl....

I consider Mhoram's decision to turn his back on the lore that contradicted the Oath of Peace a good thing and not a mistake.

In either case, I know the people of the Land would probably rediscover these talents without the hindrance of Kevin's Dirt and the Masters rule.
I just wanted to share what I believe the characters would have really said in these situations Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't it have been Gravelingas? Radhamaerl was lore, not title.
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rbyrd2531
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It says in the glossary that it is lore or masters of stone lore
Gravelingas is also listed as master of stone lore.

Both are accurate
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I would guess that yours is closer to the correct term when speaking of an individual.

The wider term Rhadhamaerl seems to be plural for masters of stone lore
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Stave tells Jeremiah, upon completion of the fane, that he has rediscovered Rhadhamaerl. I do appreciate this aspect of the old lores coming back to the Land -- including Jeremiah learning the marrowmeld on the Quellvisk bones. Though the Last Chronicles never give us a satisfying resurgence of Woodhelvinin lore.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[NOTE: Apologies for the mega-post. I've been shaping up to one of these ever since I finished TLD. For some reason the OP of this thread released it. Thanks, rbyrd!)]

I agree with many of the points you raise, rbyrd.

I was really surprised when I saw ROTE on the shelves in 2004 because I couldn't imagine how SRD could return to the story without making a mess of what he had already achieved. The series had reached a more than satisfactory conclusion for me.

Initially I thought that it was a cash-in by the author and his publishers and I didn't buy the book for a couple of years because I was afraid that reading it would tarnish my experience of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles. Eventually, I bought the book and began reading it. The start wasn't too bad, but as soon as it entered the Land I was shocked by how quickly it became unreadable. I trudged my way through it with gritted teeth. I also subsequently bought and started FR, but when I got to the part where Linden meets Covenant in Revelstone and the first thing that Covenant says is, 'Don't touch me!', I literally threw the book across the room.

It took finding the Watch and some serious advocacy by members on the part of the LCs before I finally went back and finished FR. It was still tough going but at least the part with Berek in it was well written and enjoyable. I can tell you that I passionately hated the Insequent by the end of FR and was not a bit put out by their demise (except maybe the Mahdoubt).

AATE was an almost intolerable grind from start to finish. Having TC back helped a bit, but it wasn't the characters that I found off-putting, it was the writing and editing. Hellfire, it was dire! I honestly don't remember if a single important thing actually happened in that book. And SWMNBN is the single worst thing in the whole series. Unbearable! (And, I believe, unnecessary.)

The treatment of the Giants, the Ramen, the Ranyhyn, the Haruchai, the Sandgorgons, even the bloody Lurker reduced them all in my eyes. Just about the only creatures to emerge unscathed were the Wraiths of Andelain.

A good question to ask myself at this point would be why did I do it? Why did I persist with a reading experience that seemed only to yield frustration, disappointment and annoyance? A couple of reasons presented themselves initially: to find out what happened, to see if SRD could pull the mess out of the fire, to see it out.

After discovering the Watch a couple of more reasons appeared: to be able to be fully part of the Watch community, to be able to be involved in discussions like this and after finding out more about SRD himself (through videos, interviews and the Gradual Interview) to discover what drove him to write the Last Chronicles.

Because one thing I discovered is that he didn't do it for the money (it was something that he had conceived of many years ago). I also discovered that he is a person of immense personal integrity. This appeals to me. If I have a watchword (pun noted) it is 'integrity'. I have seen SRD say, on more than one occasion, that if you don't like what he is doing with the story don't buy the books. This is the ultimate critique. However, if you persist in reading on then, at the very least, you have to accept that the author has the right to do what he likes with 'his story'. At that point, while you can criticise how the author realises his story you can't really criticise him for writing the books at all or for the story he chooses to tell (not that that has stopped me Laughing ).

And now that I have finished TLD and the series I am finally beginning to get a sense of why he wrote it. I am finally getting to a place where 'joy is in the ears that hear'. My best guess at the moment is that the psychological/spiritual journey that TC goes through in the whole of the Chronicles mirrors a psychological process that SRD himself has undergone. Part of the reason that the LCs are so tortuous is that SRD himself found the final stage of the process tortuous. I now feel that I am fortunate (in spite of the grind) to have been a witness to that. In a way I feel that I have accompanied him on the journey.

Part of the struggle was letting go of some of the glory of the 1st and 2nd Chrons. In a recent interview (that I read or heard) he admitted (for the first time, AFAIK) that he got caught up in the huge success of the 1st and 2nd Chrons (they sold approx. 15 million copies). In the glow of that kind of success he was hurt and disappointed when his Gap books weren't as well received (Mordant's Need did okay). I now see that one of the functions of the LCs is to take the gloss off what has gone before. It is a way of SRD bringing himself closer to the reality of his experience of writing the earlier Chrons rather than our experience of reading them. My experience of reading the 1st and 2nd Chrons was unalloyed (pun deliberate), SRD's experience of writing them and then living with their success wasn't.*

This is as far as I've got, but my experience with TLD and finishing the last Chrons has yielded far more than I expected and with at least a couple of serious fans yet to finish the book, no doubt, there are still more insights left to come.

u.

* I know that this is a bit meta, but with a writer of the quality of SRD there is always going to be more going on than just a straight-forward story.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

u...

The LCs as a revenge for, or mean of dealing with, the GAP books not being as well-received as they deserved? Really?

An interesting theory as a thought-experiment...but not something I can believe.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
u...

The LCs as a revenge for, or mean of dealing with, the GAP books not being as well-received as they deserved? Really?

An interesting theory as a thought-experiment...but not something I can believe.


"A man can't cross a river twice; he isn't the same man, and it isn't the same river. "

A lot of time has passed since the first two chrons were written. Its a different world and SRD had lost or acclamated to much of the stress that caused his early writing to be so brilliantly emotional (basically he spent ages 4-16 in India with no contact with people of his own culture and almost no one his own age to talk to) then dropped right into american high school with zero buffer and zero experience with the 1970 culture. he said he spent a year watching TV to get an idea of how american culture was. When he went to kent state it was a little better and he began writing.

I think you can see most of his writing is about culture shock. He has said so many times.

When he began TROTE he was a changed man, married, and had presumably lost some of that edginess that resulted in the brilliant writing of the first chrons. Also Leprosy had been effectively cured, so some of TC's dilemma had been muted.

In effect he was adifferent man, and had different motives for writing the LC, whatever they were. And it resulted in a different outcome. No surprise there. I would have been perhaps astonished if they were written seamlessly to fit with the 2chrons.

It has been said Covenant is Donaldson's Genius. And I beleive that, at least, the first two chrons.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In effect he was adifferent man, and had different motives for writing the LC, whatever they were.


We're different readers also. Thirty years is a long time to wait for the end of a story.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
The LCs as a revenge for, or mean of dealing with, the GAP books not being as well-received as they deserved? Really?

An interesting theory as a thought-experiment...but not something I can believe.

Not exactly (and definitely not revenge, that's not the SRD we know and love Laughing ). I think the psychological process that SRD talks about completing in the LCs involves a more direct engagement with reality, essentially a winding down of fantasy. In my thought experiment, part of that facing of reality for SRD involved dealing with how the writing and success of the 1st and 2nd Chrons changed and affected him.

You also have to remember where I am coming from. My disappointment in the LCs stemmed from my reading of them as an extension of a fantasy story that I loved. However, it is only after finishing the series and reading and listening to some of SRD's interviews that I am beginning to see them in a different light.

The characters and creatures that I loved (or abhorred) in the 1st and 2nd Chrons are transformed into something quite different (by becoming more 'real') in the LCs: Giants go from being immense characters to being practically interchangeable; Cavewights, who have been consistently cast as bad guys suddenly have wives and kids; the unstoppable force of Sangorgons becomes spilled guts; (coincidentally) 200 Haruchai, previously seen as an invasion force, are butchered like ordinary mortals... And the list goes on. Now that I look at it with a bit of objectivity I can see that these were the things that annoyed me the most, the slow (or in the case of the Cavewights, sudden) transformation of fantastic beings into something much more ordinary. I mourned the diminishing of something that I had experienced as glorious.

And what I couldn't figure out, up until now, is why SRD would go to so much effort and trouble when he risked diminishing his previous achievement. I now have some sort of framework that allows me to engage with the LCs where previously I could only complain about them (and through THOOLAH blame Linden for it Laughing ). Now I can engage with the series in way that I am much more comfortable with. I don't like being negative about SRD's work. I'm a huge fan and I much prefer being able to talk about how wonderful his work is.

You have constantly asked that we trust SRD; I have and my trust has been rewarded, but not in the way I expected. If I make it to Elohimfest I'll have a few questions for him! Laughing

u.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion epitomizes the term "over-analysis".
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
This discussion epitomizes the term "over-analysis".

A few responses spring to mind:
    - Who? Me? Laughing
    - I resemble that remark! No one has ever accused me of that before. Confused
    - Wait until you see my post-feminist Freudian take on this! Twisted Evil
    - That ain't nothing! Vraith hasn't even finished the book yet! Big Grin

Apologies, HC, for my part, I am very prone to over-analyse things. In my defence I can only assert that it is out of care more than anything else.

u.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the magic of the first two series makes me unfair to the last one.
Donaldson is like the Creator....he made his creation and then went on to other things for a while.

Some of us were entranced under the Arch of Time at the start......I have entire passages that I can recite in my mind when bored.

(If I am tired of a treadmill workout, I mentally recite Linden's creation of the new Staff of Law and it passes the time and gives me energy!)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overanalysis? Bah, that's what we're here for!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:

A few responses spring to mind:
    - Who? Me? Laughing
    - I resemble that remark! No one has ever accused me of that before. Confused
    - Wait until you see my post-feminist Freudian take on this! Twisted Evil
    - That ain't nothing! Vraith hasn't even finished the book yet! Big Grin

Apologies, HC, for my part, I am very prone to over-analyse things. In my defence I can only assert that it is out of care more than anything else.

u.


Great response. And I have nothing in particular against over-analysis. Razz

Condign wrote:
Overanalysis? Bah, that's what we're here for!


Touché!
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