Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Loss of Haruchai Unity
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hurtloam
Stonedownor

Male
Joined: 07 Jan 2014
Posts: 39

Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts


335 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The excommunication of Stave seemed formalistic to me (each of the Humbled striking him, followed by the Voice himself, with Stave standing and accepting each of the blows without resistance or retaliation), implying that this was a rite that might have been performed before. That would imply that there were other rebels at some point. Of course, given the mindspeech, it was a rite that COULD have been created at the spur of the moment.

I don't think there's anything particularly special about Stave at the beginning. He's obviously a well-respected Master, being the father of at least one of the Humbled. I think his experiences with Linden, including the healing he is forced to accept after being beaten to the point of death by Esmer, begin to effect a change in him, to crack open a window in his mind, so to speak. The Ranyhyn take the opportunity to push that window open wide.
_________________
Joy is in the ears that hear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18731

Thanks: 11
Thanked 210 Times in 193 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
42635 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hurtloam wrote:
implying that this was a rite that might have been performed before.

Good point. A culture of people who always agreed would not have a concept of punishing insubordination.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
starkllr
Ramen


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 78

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Arlington, VA
551 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:

How many "rebel" haruchai can you name in the Chrons (leaving aside Korik, Sill and Doar, who were corrupted by the Illearth Stone)? Stave for sure, as is discussed in this thread - shucking off the bonds of his fellows' blinkeredness. Cail too, in his eventual decision to follow the call of his passions. Brinn, maybe? Certainly in TLD, but by then he's become a whole lot more than mere haruchai and therefore has a very different perspective on things. Bannor? Yes, him too, but these few are surely the exception to the rule, having been transfigured by their profound personal (and therefore uncommunicable) experiences to an extent that they are able to see the folly or fallaciousness of their erstwhile racial mindset and unity.


I think the actions of the Haruchai after the breaking of the Vow in TPTP shows that they're not of one mind. It isn't just Bannor who chooses to go back to their mountain homelands; he mentions that several other former Bloodguard made the same choice he did, to serve the Ranyhyn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
starkllr
Ramen


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 78

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Arlington, VA
551 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hurtloam wrote:
The excommunication of Stave seemed formalistic to me (each of the Humbled striking him, followed by the Voice himself, with Stave standing and accepting each of the blows without resistance or retaliation), implying that this was a rite that might have been performed before. That would imply that there were other rebels at some point. Of course, given the mindspeech, it was a rite that COULD have been created at the spur of the moment.


The rite could date all the way back to the time before the two Haruchai tribes came together; maybe that was their ritual way of solving disputes when full-out warfare was, for whatever reason, impractical.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shadowbinding shoe
The Gap Into Spam


Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 1437

Thanks: 1
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts


2227 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Kresh1 Diamondraught1 Mind Meld


PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rite of Expelling they perform on Stave used the Humbled and the Voice, two institutions that were formed after the 2nd chrons. So maybe the decision to become Masters and suppress magic wasn't all that unanimous.

Cail did a shameful thing (becoming seduced by the merewives) and was determined to let them lead him later by the nose, but he wasn't expelled by his fellows like Stave, they just looked down on him. So I believe the Expelling ritual was formulated sometime between the 2nd and 3rd chrons due to inner conflicts regarding the interpretation of Covenant's edict.

Regarding the limits of the mindspeech, Bannor's decision not to accompany Covenant to Foul's Creche was inexplicable to the other haruchai (as they explain in the later chrons) but they accept that he must have had good reasons. So we can conclude that they could see his inner conviction and conclude that what he did was right but they cannot understand what created such a mindset in him.

That time there was no psychedelic trip. The only otherworldly experience was the possession Elena cast on them. I think the reason there was that his experiences with Covenant were so significant that they changed his mindset enough to divorce him from the normal patterns of Haruchai-thought. He can still communicate with them but the ideas now running in his thought are too alien for the other Haruchai to grasp. Communication is built on common grounds. Once they drift far enough apart bridging the gap becomes impossible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 7161

Thanks: 38
Thanked 44 Times in 43 Posts


26021 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bannor's decision is one I would need to re-visit and pay particular attention to; it comes and goes very quickly in the ongoing evnts of TPTP and tends to get lost in the rush. Did he no longer feel needed, was he afraid that the Despiser would once again demonstrate the [self-believed] Haruchai invulnerability was a myth of their own making - or did his inate ability to judge that which would 'suffice' tell him that it was Foamfollower alone that could/would rise up to defeat the Despisers challange with the pure power of mirth?

[Interesting posts above guys.]
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18731

Thanks: 11
Thanked 210 Times in 193 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
42635 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Le Pétermane wrote:
Did he no longer feel needed, was he afraid that the Despiser would once again demonstrate the [self-believed] Haruchai invulnerability was a myth of their own making - or did his inate ability to judge that which would 'suffice' tell him that it was Foamfollower alone that could/would rise up to defeat the Despisers challange with the pure power of mirth?

It was, as I see it, an act of humility. Or rather, a renouncement of pride, if you will.

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
More harshly than he intended, Covenant rasped, "So you've decided to turn your back?"

"No.'' Bannor denied the charge flatly. "What help I can, I will give. All the Bloodguard knowledge of the Spoiled Plains, of Kurash Qwellinir and Hotash Slay, I will share with you. But Ridjeck Thome, Corruption's seat - there I will not go. The deepest wish of the Bloodguard was to fight the Despiser in his home, pure service against Corruption. This desire misled. I have put aside such things. My proper place now is with the Ranyhyn and their Ramen, in the exile of the mountains."

Covenant seemed to hear an anguish behind the inflectionless tone of the speech-an anguish that hurt him in the same way that this man always hurt him. "Ah, Bannor," he sighed. "Are you so ashamed of what you were?"

Bannor cocked a white eyebrow at the question, as if it came close to the truth. "I am not shamed," he said distinctly. "But I am saddened that so many centuries were required to teach us the limits of our worth. We went too far, in pride and folly. Mortal men should not give up wives and sleep and death for any service - lest the face of failure become too abhorrent to be endured." He paused almost as if he were hesitating, then concluded, "Have you forgotten that High Lord Elena carved our faces as one in her last marrowmeld work?"

That last comment about the marrowmeld was a reference something which Mhoram described: the resemblance is that both ur-Lord Covenant the Unbeliever and Banner of the Bloodguard require absolute answers to their own lives. Bannor has renounced his desire for absolute answers. Now he is content to serve the Ranyhyn and forgo his "deepest wish". It is a prideful wish. He will instead choose a path where failure can be endured.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 7161

Thanks: 38
Thanked 44 Times in 43 Posts


26021 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the context of the topic was Bannors decision to forgo his deepest wish a break from haruchai unity or did he act with the tacit agreement of his contempories that this was an acceptable path to follow. I remember no circumstance where Bannor's decision was ever held against him by later haruchai - on the contrary his memory seems to have been revered. re The Marrowmweld, I never quite got the significance of that but always felt in some way to Elena, the connection between Bannor and Covenant refered to by her work was a deeper one than that described by Mhoram. After all, TC's need for answers was absolute only in the context of his circumstanses [which in fairness, was all the people of the Land could know of him]. Did Elena perhaps see [prophesy] TC as the agent that would effect the change in the haruchai that would lead to their ultimate redemption?
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18731

Thanks: 11
Thanked 210 Times in 193 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
42635 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Le Pétermane wrote:
In the context of the topic was Bannors decision to forgo his deepest wish a break from haruchai unity or did he act with the tacit agreement of his contempories that this was an acceptable path to follow.

This question presumes a "Haruchai unity", doesn't it? As I explained above, I don't personally subscribe to this concept.

Note that only some of the Bloodguard went down to Ra to serve with the Ramen. Others returned to the mountains or did something else.

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
I have come to share the work of the Ramen. A few of the Haruchai - I know not how many - a few felt as I did. We had known Kevin in the youth of his glory, and could not forget. Terrel is here, and Runnik. There are others.

(It's telling, in a manner relevant to this thread, that Bannor doesn't know how many Bloodguard are around.)

Le Pétermane wrote:
Did Elena perhaps see [prophesy] TC as the agent that would effect the change in the haruchai that would lead to their ultimate redemption?

It's hard to see how the author intended that, because he had no notion of a story beyond TPTP at that time. But it fits.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -> The Last Dark All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch