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Godsen and Koina (spoilers)

 
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Duskfire
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject: Godsen and Koina (spoilers) Reply with quote

Just finished reading the Gap, and one thing I am curious about is the Wardens plan, particularly involving Godsen and Koina. Koina played a particularly important role in the end and you would have to say she is as much a reason for the Councils new outlook as Hashi and Morn.

However, what if Godsen hadnt died? How would Dios' plan have worked then? There is no chance Godsen would have done what Koina did and stood against Fane.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, Godsen died died precisely because he stood up to the Dragon...
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The logic behind Fasner's test was extreme. He told Frik to come to his office immediately, which would have spared him from the kaze sent for him. Frik chose to stay, showing loyalty to Warden, which in this instance (IIRC) seemed appropriate. I never felt Frik had turned, but felt that showing loyalty to Warden at that moment was more important.

Perhaps SRD wanted to show that Holt was fallible in manipulating people, but the Frik kaze was a big mistake. It allowed Warden to put Koina into a situation that, IMO, had to have someone besides Frik. Warden wouldn't have been able to replace Frik if he was alive. What would have happened if Frik had left? Would the kaze have walked into his empty office and exploded, or wandered around looking for him?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to look to be sure, but my impression at the time was that Godsen absolutely knew that his choice meant...[though maybe not that he would be dead almost immediately]...I thought it was the first [and only] brave act of his life. He chose. And paid. [a phrase/theme I continually find myself using in reference to SRD's work]
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Frik new that his choice was significant. Even that it would bring down the breath of the Dragon. But he didn't know that it would have the exact consequences that it did. He thought he would get through whatever the fallout was.

So, in the end, he misplayed it, because he greatly underestimated Fasner.

As for the original question: I think Koina would still have done what she had done, had Frik still been alive. Still, Frik was a bit resourceful, he wasn't a total lackey, and he might have found some other way to change the course of events.

It's too complicated to even ponder, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I like Koina better than Godsen, I think Warden's plan could have worked with Godsen, as well.. As others have said, Mr. Frick found his bravery.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I had the wrong impression, but I had thought Holt's game was to have Godsen come to the Home Office so that the kaze would go off in his office without him there...giving the pretext for much ado that would distract from the scandal that Warden and Hashi were fomenting.

Frick wasn't supposed to die...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Maybe I had the wrong impression, but I had thought Holt's game was to have Godsen come to the Home Office so that the kaze would go off in his office without him there...giving the pretext for much ado that would distract from the scandal that Warden and Hashi were fomenting.

Frick wasn't supposed to die...


You may be right...in Holt's world.
But---Dios was making different kinds of "bets" on peeps. Holt only one.
And Dios was right. Godsen only survives by becoming pure evil [or pure slave, or pure idiot].
We can't KNOW, but I'd say Dios has a plan in case God is Holt's apostle.
[a more difficult/likely to fail one, but still]

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see Holt's planning as simpler in this case. Godsen couldn't be counted on to do Holt's will, so Holt got rid of him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
I see Holt's planning as simpler in this case. Godsen couldn't be counted on to do Holt's will, so Holt got rid of him.

Yea...but that's the thing.
Very greatly simplified, both Holt and Dios [not only them, there are many layers and kinds and perspectives---Hashi vs Min, for instance, related but differences, subtle and not so subtle] have a "next man up" thing in their plans---but both are running short, and the end is near.
They both need people that are exceedingly competent---even the worst is among best, compared to average folk.
HOLT, though is playing the weakness/leverage/obedience game. They'll do what he SAYS, he can push them to obey.
DIOS is playing deeper, betting on hidden strengths, when pushed, they'll do what is right/needed.
Holt chooses tools he can wield.
Dios chooses people who will act.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Holt chooses tools he can wield.
Dios chooses people who will act.

It somewhat resembles the difference between the Creator and the Despiser in the Covenant books. The Creator trusts those he chooses, and the Despiser manipulates them.

The analogy is not perfect, I'll admit, because Warden is certainly manipulating Angus by replacing his datacore, forcing him to try to rescue Morn at all costs. But Warden became more trusting with giving Angus the freedom to choose, as the story went on.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Holt chooses tools he can wield.
Dios chooses people who will act.

It somewhat resembles the difference between the Creator and the Despiser in the Covenant books. The Creator trusts those he chooses, and the Despiser manipulates them.

The analogy is not perfect, I'll admit, because Warden is certainly manipulating Angus by replacing his datacore, forcing him to try to rescue Morn at all costs. But Warden became more trusting with giving Angus the freedom to choose, as the story went on.

I agree...there is a similarity/relationship that can't be ignored.
And differences that can't be, either.

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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
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