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What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies?

 
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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:20 am    Post subject: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? Reply with quote

So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've conjectured about this on other threads, but I think it's clear that Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah have undergone some kind of transformation in the process of redeeming the Creation which has made them something different from ordinary mortal humans, although not necessarily immortal. It's also clear that one of the goals that Covenant has set for himself is to help Lord Foul take a less curmudgeonly view of the universe and his role within it. I don't think Lord Foul will remain absorbed if and when Covenant passes on, but the interesting questions will be (a) whether he has ceased, partly or wholly, to be a Despiser and (b) whether he will return to beyond the Arch of Time as She did.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My impression is that Covenant is now immortal. He's the world's creator now, so he should be. And he would get the power from Foul, and so he could be. After being the Timewarden he would want to care for his world, and so he would be.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anybody say "plot hole"?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Can anybody say "plot hole"?


Yep.
But I can also say "The damn story is over, and there are God's in the Earth."
Given that there are two gold rings, a shitpile of Forestals that know more than any others ever did, Elohim and Insequent and other folk combining knowledge, a Staff of Law wielder who had knowledge in his own person from pretty much every age and Power of the world PLUS a talent for metaphysical doors, traps, and rooms...and they have an age or two to work out what they don't know?
If he hasn't learned his lesson by the time TC is on his death bed [if that's even likely to happen] they just find/make a new safe place.
If he HAS, then they send him home, where He, SHE and Creator can have a weepy/joyful reunion in the "outside" and get about the business of making better worlds. [our world being rough draft, the Land better, the next one even better.]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to add... if Hile Troy can become Caer-Caveral and live for 3500 years, I think Covenant can live pretty much as long as he wants to. And it says somewhere in the first Chronicles that service to the Earth grants long life.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Can anybody say "plot hole"?

I honestly don't see how. At worst, it's an ambiguous resolution. But, as SRD² says, "Endings to be useful must be inconclusive."

dlbpharmd wrote:
I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds.

Speaking of which, we should't be relying on recall ... when is it time to start badgering Jenn about that?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:
I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds.

Speaking of which, we should't be relying on recall ... when is it time to start badgering Jenn about that?


It's past time! Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away?


What is this !!! You mean we don't get to find out if Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are alive or dead and left laying in a ditch surrounded by dumbass cops ?

I've still to read part II of The Last Dark and now wondering what's the point.

Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor, if you haven't finished The Last Dark yet, than what are you doing reading posts on the TLD sub-forum?
Of course you're going to encounter spoiler information!

But, the good news is there's still plenty of surprises in store for you--as long as you can stay off this sub-forum until you've completed the book, that is.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: What Happens to Foul when Covenant Dies? Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
So Covenant has effectively absorbed Foul. Will Foul still be absorbed when Covenant eventually passes away?


What is this !!! You mean we don't get to find out if Covenant, Linden, and Jeremiah are alive or dead and left laying in a ditch surrounded by dumbass cops ?
Rolling Eyes


They're dead, Jim. I mean Viz. In the homeworld. they probably are surrounded by cops, cuz that's why they're dead in the homeworld. That shouldn't be a spoiler for anyone reading a last dark thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I crave your pardon, Vizidor, if I sounded somewhat harsh in my last post on this thread.
But as a general rule to avoid encountering spoilers, you should not read posts in a forum or sub-forum dedicated to a Donaldson book that you haven't yet finished (this particular post being an exception, of course). TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd really didn't do anything wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

I don't mean to be a Nancy Naysayer, but this question had never crossed my mind. It just doesn't compute for me.

Foul was inside Covenant from the get-go. He only finally "accepted him inside himself" (note the dual meaning) at the end of TLD.

For that matter, Foul was also always inside everyone else (Linden, Jeremiah et al) from the get-go. But it was TC's unique issues, the specifics of his personal battle, that culminated in his need to "absorb" Foul. Linden and Jeremiah didn't need to do so in order to follow their True Selves. Their victory over selfishness lay along other paths.

IMO, the question of "what might happen next" is superfluous because these three have achieved wholeness, victory and salvation in interrelationship. They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss. The story really is over. That something could happen next (as wayfriend notes, "Endings to be useful must be inconclusive.") is beside the point. As it says on the dedication page, And they lived happily ever after.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss.

(I wonder if I might entice you to contribute to the Family thread.)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+
wayfriend wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
They've become Family and, doing so, have found their bliss.

(I wonder if I might entice you to contribute to the Family thread.)

Assuredly. I'll give it a lookover. It's already 4 pages. Not sure I'll have anything to contribute, but I'll keep it in mind. Thanx, yo.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Forgot to add... if Hile Troy can become Caer-Caveral and live for 3500 years, I think Covenant can live pretty much as long as he wants to. And it says somewhere in the first Chronicles that service to the Earth grants long life.


Yes. When Covenant is translated early in TIW he notices that Mhoram and Tohrm both look younger than they should given that 40 years has elapsed since the events in LFB, and when he asks Tohrm about this Tohrm explains that serving their lore and Revelstone has kept them young. The Old Lords had a deeper knowledge of the lore and had lifespans of several hundred years; Kevin was High Lord for 1000 years before dying an untimely death in the Ritual of Desecration.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
I asked SRD that very question at E'fest. As best I can recall, his answer was that we could make up our own minds.



I hate that.
I call it poor writing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And further to my last post, later in TIW Elena confirms what Tohrm has told Covenant and elaborates on it.
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