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What are the MORALS of the Gap Cycle?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject: What are the MORALS of the Gap Cycle? Reply with quote

If you had to explain them, or just one perhaps, what would you say the moral or morals of this story are?

And perhaps "moral" is the wrong word... maybe instead there's more of an underlying meaning than a 'moral' in the true sense of the word.

Anyways, discuss!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is a "moral of the story" (as opposed to morals in the story, which is a different thing) I would say:

Victim, Victimizer, and Rescuer are ever-recurring roles in our lives; the line between them is thin and blurred, and we can move from one to the other easily. The worst thing is when we victimize ourselves; fortunately, we can rescue ourselves as well.

Oh, and never activate a singularity grenade in a crowded room.

And: Beware the wrath of a patient Amnion.

Fight matter cannon fire with matter cannon fire.

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Mother knows best, so don't let anyone talk to her.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone can take what they want from the Gap Cycle.

I don't believe it was written to teach lessons, SRD just wanted to tell a good story, and he accomplished that objective in grand style.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Oh, and never activate a singularity grenade in a crowded room.


Unless you are a terrorist... Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's a "moral", just something that gets expressed in the telling of the Gap story.

But humanity, as it is, is worth something. And there's a point where we can lose it...or at least, in SRD's world, there is, and the benefit of doing so is to be able to improve ourselves, combat the amnion, etc.

But, nonetheless, retaining humanity is more important, more important than survival, if survival means losing what makes life worth living.

...Or something.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety wrote:
I don't think it's a "moral", just something that gets expressed in the telling of the Gap story.

(That's why I ask, are we discussing "moral of the story", which is what you might learn from it, or "morality", which is the ethics that the story promotes.)

Quote:

(Wow. Freud would say a lot about this pic!)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Holsety wrote:
I don't think it's a "moral", just something that gets expressed in the telling of the Gap story.

(That's why I ask, are we discussing "moral of the story", which is what you might learn from it, or "morality", which is the ethics that the story promotes.)

Quote:

(Wow. Freud would say a lot about this pic!)


I should make it smaller. But, it is from a pretty dark an' evil show Sad , and the main character actually has a few interesting paralells with Covenant - he nearly rapes someone, and the evil demonic berserked angry side that led him into it is also one of the things that allows him to be powerful (kinda like Covenant's white ring promising salvific and destructive powers at the same time, though I'm stretching here). Still, I symphatize with the guy despite his faults, as I do and did with Covenant during the Land series.

Back to the main topic...when I think about it, I feel that both the retaining humanity thing, and the reality of the rotating victim/victimizer/savior (I feel like the redeemer/savior thing should also start with V, but I can't think of anything right now...) are major morals. The reason why they're both major, and neither is subordinate to the other, is the fact that Donaldson has written both a great work and a great sci-fi work. Often, I think Sci-fi books have to choose whether they're addressing something that will happen in the future, or addressing the nature of humans now with the future as a backdrop. I think the vic/vill/resc triangle's changings, which you suggested, are an example of the latter, while what I said is the example of the former. Both are important to the overall quality of the book, how much we enjoy it, and what we can take away from it.

Well, maybe not, because I think that the triangle lessons, so to speak, are more likely to be significant now and later, while the sci-fi lessons are not something that will be likely to change the present, and less likely to remain in the future if they are needed when aliens land on earth or what have you -_- I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but I think it's an arguably worthwhile point.

EDIT-Actually, just to mention something about the pic...it's actually "missing" key details for psychoanalyzation of the guy through visuals, which is that you can't see his right eye or left arm - the eye's shut, not working, w/e, and the arm is mechanical because he lost that too Crying or Very sad I picked it b/c i thought it contrasted well with the rather silly looking picture of Lord "Mhoram" from Fantasy bedtime hour.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety wrote:
I picked it b/c i thought it contrasted well with the rather silly looking picture of Lord "Mhoram" from Fantasy bedtime hour.

And he has a really big .... sword. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Holsety wrote:
I picked it b/c i thought it contrasted well with the rather silly looking picture of Lord "Mhoram" from Fantasy bedtime hour.

And he has a really big .... sword. Wink


Oh, that.

Ya, actually I'm fairly sure that's one of the things the sword represents. Also, apparently my bro heard some guy claim that this scene where the main character and a friend of his, male, splash each other with water symbolizes more (the buckets, you see, are receptacles which hold liquid, and are used by the two to spash each other... -_-). I've never really felt like giving that much thought.

But I feel like the big pic/big sword thing is a self-criticizing aspect of the sig, and I'll need to make it smaller (pic takes up too much room).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its the lead character from the Anime series "Berserk"
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...another one on the big "to watch" pile in my anime cupboard.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: it's simple to me Reply with quote

the morals? honesty "family and honor, truth, strength, and definitely all's fair in l&w


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a bunch of morals wrapped up in each of the 3 major characters.

First thing that comes to mind... Succorso taught us that a life of vengeance is wrong. His whole tough guy appearance was just an act, because he wanted a girl and she rejected him and he could never get over it.

No one is so perfect that even a slight of face-scarring magnitude is worth a lifetime of wroth. Or something. Just be humble and learn to let things go.

Confused

Anyway, read SRD's published comments in TRS to learn some stuff.

Edit: After rereading those SRD comments, wayfriend is right about the true message. It's the trinity thing. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I figured, but thanks! Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The clear and obvious moral is "don't sadistically rape and torture people you might be forced to work with in the future to save humanity."
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh...it's just a buncha stuff that happens...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think the Moral heart of the Story is Warden. The *human* characters are mostly just pawns, being used by the *god* Characters. Warden's story is about responsibility, sacrifice, and most of all, integrity. In fact, Integrity seems to be a key theme of the novels. Every character sells himself, whores him/herself out in some way. Warden is finally able to take his integrity back from the person to whom he sold it, leading to Gotterdamerung, the end of the gods (the UMC/UMCP). He returns to the people the chance to make their own choices, to be culpable for their actions that they didnt have while Holt ran the universe.

And what are the Amnion? They represent the ultimite loss of control over one's destiny. Free will defines humanity. Angus, Morn, Nick, Sorus, Milos. They are all slaves to the infinite greed of Holt Fasner. Even Warden is a (willing) slave. It is his gift to humanity to end their thralldom, their bondage to one man's lust for immortality.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Morality? Reply with quote

When I look for morality in the Gap, I look first to its mother--The Ring Cycle.

The Afterword of The Real Story really helps keep things in perspective. In the beginning--i.e. The Real Story / Das Rheingold & Die Walkure--there is Law, represented by Warden (Wotan) and his spear, which holds the world together. You know, basic world-managing rules. Don't steal. Play fair. Pretty much, the morals of this world (according to Wotan/ Warden) fall somewhere along the lines of "let's make a deal."

Angus/Siegmund is the antithesis of this mentality. They're lawbreakers--therefore immoral, at least on some level--by nature. In a way, this gives them freedom--they're *outside* the law (Thomas Covenant, anyone?) and outside of morality, so no one expects them to *have* morals. Nick Succorso (possibly Hunding, part-Hagen) is a melding of the extremes, if you think about it, since he works for "the law" indirectly while serving only himself and chaos (the Chaos/Order debates in the books also, to some extent, gives the answer to the morality/immorality question).

Wotan/Warden, though, is bound by laws, and bond by morals--when it comes to the bargains he's made and his relationship with Fricka/Godsen Frik. In the Gap, it is clear that Warden *is* moral--from his perspective chapters, or the speech he gave to the UMCP cadets, as two examples. But his morality blinds him--a shocker in Donaldson, no?--and he becomes trapped in his bargains. When Wotan's spear is snapped in two (which could roughly be compared to Davies' appearance in Holt Fasner's line of sight) the world, and all vestiges of remaining morality and power of the "old" world, fall apart.

The end of the Ring Cycle itself--oh boy--is actually not as optimistic as Donaldson's. In Wagner's view, the only way we return to the status quo of basic morality, values, and a world with some seblance of order is to (1) "cleanse" all the corrupted parties, usually by death, and (2) step up to make this new world order real.

"Perhaps humankind can live without its gods."
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When Wotan's spear is snapped in two (which could roughly be compared to Davies' appearance in Holt Fasner's line of sight) the world, and all vestiges of remaining morality and power of the "old" world, fall apart.

Hmm, I always felt that the parallel to the ring cycle occurred a little earlier, when Angus breaks free from his datacore. But to each his/her own.
Quote:
and a world with some seblance of order is to (1) "cleanse" all the corrupted parties, usually by death, and (2) step up to make this new world order real.

And one of the key parts of warden's character is how he lays his plans in order to spare his subordinates as much fallout from his actions as he can.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think it can be summed up with the song from Queen, "Who Wants To Live Forever?"
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