Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Where's the bees???
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38688

Thanks: 17
Thanked 117 Times in 108 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
21347 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Syl, Peven's reference to Fox News was no different that Malik's use of the F-bomb earlier in the week. Anyone who has read this forum for more than a couple of weeks knows that I don't watch Fox News at all, that I'm not a neocon, that I don't toe any party line, and that I'm all for alternative energy sources (in fact, I've called in the single most important issue facing mankind).

But rather than offering any substance to this debate, Peven has quoted a magnificently stilted mockumentary, then disparaged anyone who disagrees with it/him by regurgitating bumper sticker sound bites (shades of Idiocracy). While it's certainly his right to chose that style of debate over substance, it doesn't foster a whole lot 'o respect, nor does it do much to keep a conversation going. "If you don't agree with me you're a doo-doo head", got old when I was 5.

One other thing Syl (and you should know better). I never use Wiki as my only source to prove a point, hence the reason I said, "Oh, and you can start with this and follow the myriad of links...", rather than saying, "accept this and my word as gospel, lest you burn for eternity in the Pit". There's no shortage of stuff out there on the EV1 (though oddly the big 4 car magazines don't have their articles online), it's a shame that people don't bother researching it before they start spouting stuff.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12838

Thanks: 83
Thanked 57 Times in 55 Posts


3130 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
No Syl, Peven's reference to Fox News was no different that Malik's use of the F-bomb earlier in the week.

*shrug* I strongly disagree (I can barely see more than a vague correlation, even... though the use of holy s*** upthread had missed my attention, and that is). Regardless, Peven didn't say you watch Fox News. It could be implied, but as I said, I don't think it is.
Quote:
But rather than offering any substance to this debate, Peven has quoted a magnificently stilted mockumentary, then disparaged anyone who disagrees with it/him by regurgitating bumper sticker sound bites (shades of Idiocracy).

It was a throw away example (whether it was a good one or not, I have no idea) in response to Malik which you then jumped upon. He asked if you'd seen it and said it didn't sound like it. Then there are various questions, accusations, and clarifications, all of which failed to advance the dialogue (I'm talking about both sides here). Perhaps you could quote the bumper sticker sound bites and disparagement, to make it easier for me to assess.
Quote:
One other thing Syl (and you should know better). I never use Wiki as my only source to prove a point, hence the reason I said, "Oh, and you can start with this and follow the myriad of links...", rather than saying, "accept this and my word as gospel, lest you burn for eternity in the Pit". There's no shortage of stuff out there on the EV1 (though oddly the big 4 car magazines don't have their articles online), it's a shame that people don't bother researching it before they start spouting stuff.

I stand by the fact that references without citation are meaningless. More meaningless than wikipedia, even. You could claim any reputable source supports your argument, and without a citation to prove that... I wasn't trying to impugn your integrity, Cail. It was only a comment on that particular response.

Look, the only reason I butted in here is because the debate was devolving into nothing more than acrimony, and it looked like you were perhaps taking something more personally than it was intended, even if arguments on both sides are much more personal than need be.

I repeat my call to all sides of this to stick to the facts (relative as they may be) and put the drama and personal differences aside. Yeah, it may not be as exciting or satisfying when you score a point, but... Better in the long run, I think we can all agree.
_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12838

Thanks: 83
Thanked 57 Times in 55 Posts


3130 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, and a mockumentary is intentional satire, isn't it? Like Man Bites Dog or This is Spinal Tap. Haven't seen it, but ...Electric Car is, ostensibly, genuine, I thought.
_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 17417

Thanks: 37
Thanked 174 Times in 167 Posts


20418 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh yeah, and a mockumentary is intentional satire, isn't it? Like Man Bites Dog or This is Spinal Tap. Haven't seen it, but ...Electric Car is, ostensibly, genuine, I thought.


If Fox News can be compared to Michael Moore here, I see nothing wrong with poking fun at the movie by calling it a "mockumentary." I understood Cail's comment as sarcastic. He doesn't really think it's the same as a Christopher Guest movie.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12838

Thanks: 83
Thanked 57 Times in 55 Posts


3130 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a bit of a mischaracterization of the comparison, wouldn't you say? It was not a direct comparison, but rather one of the relative worth to those of competing viewpoints. If anything, the correlative would have been my use of quotation marks around 'News.' I may have implied that I doubted their claims, but I did not state that they were anything other than they were.
_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38688

Thanks: 17
Thanked 117 Times in 108 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
21347 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18042/

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/239

I meant mockumentary in the same sense that Moore's films are mockumentaries. I figured it was less inflammatory than calling them stilted, tripeish, propaganda.

Had Chris Guess been in it playing a dense guitar player, I would have enjoyed the film much more.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did a discussion about bees and the possible causes of their dying off get so political? Shall I look around for the first person to bring politics into it? (Nah, too lazy.) Some good points (about the bees) buried in there though...let's try to stick to 'em huh? Laughing

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very sporting of you, Big M.

Malik (responding to Wayfriend, 1st page, last post wrote:

I'm not trying to pick on you. You're just the first one who got the ball rolling on blaming mankind before we actually know the cause. Curiously,this type of premature, anti-human biased, unscientific thinking, seems especially prevalent in liberal minded people. I'm not sure why. Maybe you could explain it to me, since you participate in it.



That's where it got political, Av. Wayfriend (apparently) brought partisan politics into it by suggesting the possibility of humanity being a part of the cause.

Shame on you, Wayfriend. Wink

Malik, you made a great post that I entirely agreed with on the "Inconvenient Truth" thread which, I felt, entirely contradicted the above quote of yourself:

Malik wrote:
I think that increases in the sun's output only make any manmade factors that much more dire. The warming in Global Warming has always come from the sun. That's never been in dispute. If the sun is putting out more radiation, then it's plausible that man-made contributions to the natural greenhouse effect are even more serious.



How are these two viewpoints, both expressed by you, to your mind, not mutually exclusive? You're not just (gasp!) playing games in order to divert the debate, are you?

PS Sorry for my not mentioning bees. I blame Wayfriend. Wink
_________________
There is nothing so strange as that which is half-familiar.


Last edited by Trapper on Thu May 03, 2007 1:41 am; edited 8 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 17417

Thanks: 37
Thanked 174 Times in 167 Posts


20418 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Trapper, I don't think there's a contradiction in my statements. There's a huge difference between the bee phenomenon and global warming. The scientific consensus is pointing to a conclusive cause for global warming. Not so for the bees. Global warming is something that has been studied for over a decade, while the bee situation became dire within the last few months. So I can say that blaming man before a scientific consensus has developed is premature. And since it is not based on the opinion of scientists, it's arguably unscietific. Also, since this opinion doesn't come from scientists, it comes from one's own assumptions which appear to me to be anti-human. How else would you describe such an eagerness to blame humans ahead of the scientific consensus?

Meanwhile, none of these can be applied to global warming. While it is possible to object to global warming by citing other scientists who disagree with the consensus, I don't think it can be described as premature, because the majority of scientists have already weighed in. And if you trust those scientists and their arguments, then agreeing with them isn't anti-human. And it's certainly not unscientific.


I'm not playing games.

And what's wrong with examining the political attitudes surrounding issues in the Think Tank?
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Edited an earlier post (2 places up)... It got a response, so I restored it)

Last edited by Trapper on Thu May 03, 2007 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit, as above.

Sorry about the multiple posts (I was a bit discombobulated, got up at 0430 to watch Milan vs Manchester United).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I didn't want to know where it got political. Very Happy Bastard. Wink

Malik's post about everything being political though is getting its own thread. Very Happy

And his post above was a good one. Set out his thought process better than anything else in this thread, and I'll agree that it's not a contradiction. He's a coldly logical one I tell you. Laughing

However, I have no problem admitting that I'm anti-human. In general, I am. I think I'd be better off if the world population was reduced by about 95%. Selfish I know, but that's me. Laughing

(Forget the damn bees, this is more fun. Very Happy )

(Excuse me while I go split out that post.)

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Malik's post about everything being political though is getting its own thread. Very Happy

And his post above was a good one. Set out his thought process better than anything else in this thread, and I'll agree that it's not a contradiction. He's a coldly logical one I tell you. Laughing

(Forget the damn bees, this is more fun. Very Happy)

--A


Damn straight, Av.

Opposing viewpoints are fun to deal with. Would like to share a round of golf with both of you. But I would still be thinking: WTF!

Kinda as it should be. Kinda not...

Kinda odd...

The Watch is a 'lil bit like life that way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL I hate golf. Wink Now make it a round of drinks...or something else we could pass around... Wink

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember dude, I'm an Aussie.

It's all about sports with us.

It's all about kicking your a**. Twisted Evil For the fun of it.

Now, this "drinking" contest you speak of... Where do I sign in? Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this some reference to the cricket? Wink

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Trapper
Tambourine Virtuoso

Male
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1218

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: Wombling free
332 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmm, kinda. Embarassed Laughing

I feel so exposed... Cheap, if you like...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Don't feel bad...like I said, I care nothing for sport. Very Happy

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
[Syl]
Embattred


Joined: 26 Oct 2002
Posts: 12838

Thanks: 83
Thanked 57 Times in 55 Posts


3130 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Organic Bee Losses
Quote:
"Sharon Labchuk is a longtime environmental activist and part-time organic beekeeper from Prince Edward Island. She has twice run for a seat in Ottawa's House of Commons, making strong showings around 5% for Canada's fledgling Green Party. She is also leader of the provincial wing of her party. In a widely circulated email, she wrote:

I'm on an organic beekeeping list of about 1,000 people, mostly Americans, and no one in the organic beekeeping world, including commercial beekeepers, is reporting colony collapse on this list. The problem with the big commercial guys is that they put pesticides in their hives to fumigate for varroa mites, and they feed antibiotics to the bees. They also haul the hives by truck all over the place to make more money with pollination services, which stresses the colonies.

Her email recommends a visit to the Bush Bees Web site at Here, Michael Bush felt compelled to put a message to the beekeeping world right on the top page:

Most of us beekeepers are fighting with the Varroa mites. I'm happy to say my biggest problems are things like trying to get nucs through the winter and coming up with hives that won't hurt my back from lifting or better ways to feed the bees.

This change from fighting the mites is mostly because I've gone to natural sized cells. In case you weren't aware, and I wasn't for a long time, the foundation in common usage results in much larger bees than what you would find in a natural hive. I've measured sections of natural worker brood comb that are 4.6mm in diameter. What most people use for worker brood is foundation that is 5.4mm in diameter. If you translate that into three dimensions instead of one, it produces a bee that is about half as large again as is natural. By letting the bees build natural sized cells, I have virtually eliminated my Varroa and Tracheal mite problems. One cause of this is shorter capping times by one day, and shorter post-capping times by one day. This means less Varroa get into the cells, and less Varroa reproduce in the cells.

_________________
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.
-George Steiner
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 56117

Thanks: 72
Thanked 162 Times in 159 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23211 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Syl. Very interesting indeed. Very Happy

You know, this whole time I've thought they were talking about wild bee populations.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch