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Nazi Symbolism in public spaces without embarrassment?
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Nazi Symbolism in public spaces without embarrassment? Reply with quote

I just had a first. On my "people you may know" bar on my Facebook App I just got someone... who I've never heard of before who's Facebook photo was a Red South Carolina shape (that's where I live) with white palmetto tree in the center and I swear to God the two "SS" symbols over the upper left hand part of the State.

I'm aware that neo-nazi's exist, I just never expected to see their symbolism popping up on a public Facebook feed. Is this becomeing more common???
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently it is, not just on Facebook, but all over the place, particularly in the US.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Apparently it is, not just on Facebook, but all over the place, particularly in the US.

--A


Avatar,

And that is incredibly disturbing to me. There aren't any "good points to make about the Nazi's. That people feel comfortable enough to have Nazi symbolism as the face they present to the world on Facebook shocks the hell out of me. I wish there were some way to determine how common this is becoming. Some algorithm that would allow us to see how many people are using Nazi symbolism as their face to the world on social media.

Maybe this is just the asshole's thinking it's okay to come out into the light?
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell, we had a presidential candidate unembarrassed to call himself a socialist ... I'm not surprised anymore how things that were once considered un-American and extreme have inched into the mainstream.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Hell, we had a presidential candidate unembarrassed to call himself a socialist ... I'm not surprised anymore how things that were once considered un-American and extreme have inched into the mainstream.
Zarathustra,

Being a "socialist" isn't coextensive with being a Marxist/Leninist style communist. Fabian Socialists have been around for more than a Century. Hell, Libraries and roads paid for by tax money are "socialist". Why would proclaiming yourself a "socialist" be anything like someone proudly proclaiming themselves to be a Nazi? Are you really suggesting those to statements are analogus?
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SS, Nazis were socialists. No, I'm not saying that the two statements are the same, or that all socialists are like Nazis, but it is utterly shocking to me that a presidential candidate got anywhere near the White House as a proclaimed socialist. I find that MUCH more shocking than the fact that there are assholes on the Internet. We've always had those.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
SS, Nazis were socialists. No, I'm not saying that the two statements are the same, or that all socialists are like Nazis, but it is utterly shocking to me that a presidential candidate got anywhere near the White House as a proclaimed socialist. I find that MUCH more shocking than the fact that there are assholes on the Internet. We've always had those.


We have. That's why I really wish for some algorithm that could determine how many assholes (of this particular flavor) we have on the internet.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
We have. That's why I really wish for some algorithm that could determine how many assholes (of this particular flavor) we have on the internet.


All of them.

If an asshole of this variety has an Internet connection, they are actively on the Internet trying to ruffle as many feathers as they can on a daily basis. When they aren't ruffling feathers on social media sites, they are logged in to their dark web portal(s) with others just like them without having to worry about anyone looking over their shoulder.

The fact that you were shocked, SerScot, means that their plan was a success--they successfully shocked at least one person. Don't try to engage them over it, though--they'll troll you for months until you finally manage to block them all, at which point they will pop back up under new profiles.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Socialism is perfectly acceptable in large parts of the world. Laughing Very different from Nazism. Nothing to do with "un-Americanism." (A term which cannot but conjure shades of McCarthy for me...)

SerScot, I took a look around and I didn't find anything off-hand about some way to map these incidences...but there must be a way...will look into it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
SS, Nazis were socialists. No, I'm not saying that the two statements are the same, or that all socialists are like Nazis, but it is utterly shocking to me that a presidential candidate got anywhere near the White House as a proclaimed socialist. I find that MUCH more shocking than the fact that there are assholes on the Internet. We've always had those.


LOL NAZIs were socialist in name only. It was a pre-existing party that Hitler used as a vehicle for his own purposes, and to win his way to the Reichstag.

The NAZI party was totally fascist. Any socialist policies the NAZIs employed, which were few, were only used to enhance state control over the people.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The political science terms "socialism" and "communism" have been used and misused so often that almost no one knows what they mean any more. Compounding this problem is the fact that governments will name themselves using terms which are the opposite of what they should mean. For example, the official name of North Korea is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". There is nothing "democratic" about it and it certainly isn't a "people's republic", which implies that the citizens vote on their leadership. No, in the DPRK the mantle of Supreme Leader has been handed down from father to son for a couple of generations now, which is more akin to absolute monarchy than anything "democratic" or "republic". Interestingly, Jong-Un's father and grandfather, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il still hold the official government title "Eternal Leader"--they still rule in the DPRK from the afterlife, which is more akin to Egyptian god-pharaohs than any modern system of government.

The fact that the Nazi party used the word "socialist" in its official title is meaningless--that government was all about being a military dictatorship with absolute control going from the top down (with various high-ranking officials taking what power and valuables they could for themselves).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir, I think the situation is more complex than that, but I'll concede that Nazis weren't exactly like modern quasi-socialist countries that exist throughout Europe today . However, that's not the only kind of socialism. There are many kinds.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

The Nazi Party had many working-class supporters and members, and a strong appeal to the middle class. The financial collapse of the white collar middle-class of the 1920s figures much in their strong support of Nazism.[141] In the poor country that was the Weimar Republic of the early 1930s, the Nazi Party realised their socialist policies with food and shelter for the unemployed and the homeless-were later recruited into the Brownshirt Sturmabteilung (SA - Storm Detachments).[141]

The Nazis continued social welfare policies initiated by the governments of the Weimar Republic and mobilised volunteers to assist those impoverished, "racially-worthy" Germans through the National Socialist People's Welfare (NSV) chairman Erich Hilgenfeldt organisation.[188] This organisation oversaw charitable activities, and became the largest civic organisation in Nazi Germany.[188]

Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, expressed disdain for capitalism, arguing that it holds nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.[208] He opposed free market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.[192]

Hitler distrusted capitalism for being unreliable due to its egotism, and he preferred a state-directed economy that is subordinated to the interests of the Volk.[208]


Hitler was the most famous Nazi, but he wasn't the only one. It was a political movement made up of lots of people, many of whom were explicitly socialist:

Quote:
A number of other Nazis held strong revolutionary socialist and anti-capitalist beliefs, most prominently Ernst Rohm, the leader of the Sturmabteilung (SA).[212] Rohm claimed that the Nazis' rise to power constituted a national revolution, but insisted that a socialist "second revolution" was required for Nazi ideology to be fulfilled.[30] Rohm's SA began attacks against individuals deemed to be associated with conservative reaction.[30] Hitler saw Rohm's independent actions as violating and possibly threatening his leadership, as well as jeopardising the regime by alienating the conservative President Paul von Hindenburg and the conservative-oriented German Army.[31] This resulted in Hitler purging Rohm and other radical members of the SA.[31]

Another radical Nazi, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, had stressed the socialist character of Nazism, and claimed in his diary in the 1920s that if he were to pick between Bolshevism and capitalism, he said "in final analysis", "it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism".[213]



Skyweir wrote:
The NAZI party was totally fascist. Any socialist policies the NAZIs employed, which were few, were only used to enhance state control over the people.
In my opinion, socialism is always used to enhance state control over the people. You don't have to be a Nazi to be a statist.

Skyweir wrote:
LOL NAZIs were socialist in name only.
One could say that the morons in Charlottesville are "Nazis in name only." Hitler is dead. There will not be another Holocaust (not unless it's done by Iran or ISIS).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa!!! Hahaha ... Wikipedia not the credible source of information you had hoped. Z, Hitler said many things and did the polar opposite.

The Nazi party was not formed by Hitler, it was originally an actual socialist party with socialist ideologies. Hitler used those that would promote him and serve his agenda. As I said for state control. The 'Volkswagen', Fanta, and a myriad of other 'social policies' Hitler employed to appeal to the German public. He also cleverly kept the war from Germany and its civilians till he couldn't.

Hiyler also said he detested socialism. But he was never a man who was consistent in his views, except his views concerning the inter-Mencken he abhorred them throughout his rule. You know the Jews, the blacks, gypsies, the disabled etc.

Mmm what else did you cite from wiki? Let me re-read and get back to you on your other points. Plus it's 3.39am here and I am already falling back into my old Watch habits!!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay - you mentioned Ernst Rohm - he was at least in the beginning an ideological socialist. He was also the head of the SA. And assassinated under Hitler as he had gained significant power in his role and I believe Hitler feared he could challenge his direction, oppose policies that did not align with Rohm's world view. Plus Hitler was known for his paranoid obsessions.

Hitler was all about Hitler. I mentioned the Volkswagen, his 'socialist' plan to ensure all citizens could have a car of the people, this wasn't successfully delivered. However, more pointed was his desire that all citizens have a radio - in fact I believe that Germans had the highest number of radio ownership in the western world, at that time. Sounds great doesn't it? A leader that wants to provide technology access to all? Hitler had his own agenda which was achieved through this public policy ~ he controlled ALL content!

All had radios all were fed Nazi propaganda. Hitlers propaganda machine was notoriously successful - his sycophant propaganda chief, Goebels was a true artist! Hitler wanted popular approval, needed, wanted, craved, Goebels to a large degree realised this for the Nazi leader.

But who cares? What does it matter whether he was a socialist, despite all his actions demonstrating otherwise. It really isn't relevant? Surely your not trying to appeal to the left among us.

The point is what his party did, in his name and in his party's name. Rabbis anti-Semitic policies, extermination of Jews (even though he had his own ancestral Jews), exterminated large swaths of gypsies throughout Eastern Europe, and 100s of thousands of people deemed unter-menchen, men, women and children. Grnocidal policy to wipe Jews from the face of the earth.

Remind me what the protesters were chanting as they marched, "Jews will not replace us" "blood and soul" etc ... this is the nazi legacy. This is what these white supremesists avow, this is what the KKK have always hailed as righteousness. This is THE problem ... even Trump saw that .. or at least he claimed to see, when he conceded when he was running for office.

This is the ugly and dangerous component of such ideologies and symbolism.

Not sure if I've gone off track - but ... yeah
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and your comment " one could say the Charlottesville protestors are nazis in name only"

No one could not.

They proclaim themselves neo-nazis. White supremasist leaders and the KKK flight high the swastika! The party emblem! It doesn't matter that Hitler is dead, his portrait hangs in many of their homes and meeting places as does the swastika.

So no .. you're really reaching there 😬
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to concur with Zarathustra--the white supremacists here are only Nazi wannabes. To illustrate the point, consider that you can have your ears and eyes surgically altered to make you look like an elf (some people have already done this), you can dress like a Tolkien elf (based on illustrations and descriptions), and you may even speak Sindar but you are most definitely *not* an elf. The Nazi the current folks try to emulate died out in 1945, making them merely copycats.

That isn't to say that none of them advocate things like rounding up people of various non-white groups--some of them probably do want that--but in general I think they are people who have fallen for some sort of groupthink and are basing their identity on some abnormal "ideal" to which they try to adhere. Don't forget--some of them were brought up that way and may not have had an opportunity to learn differently. To be certain, though, some of them did/do know better but choose that life anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much agree with Hashi there, although I think one could probably apply the term "neo-nazi" here. They see themselves as the continuation of that belief. Not sure if they would actually refer to themselves that way, but if they use Nazi symbolism, then the resemblance is considerably more than accidental I think.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have consistently referred to their being neo-nazis .. they aren't really playing dress up are they? We're all adults here, I assume. They're not playing nazi - they're as prepared to fight for their ideology as any extremist is.

I fail to understand how you don't get this. What do you think these dudes are about? Yeah no worries .. the younglins are babes .. maybe been sucked along in the ferver of their influencers.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say they were playing--they aren't. All I said is that they aren't "real" Nazis, only copycats. Many of them would gladly round up non-whites, knock out teeth, break an arm, set fire to a building, etc. for their cause.

My skin color notwithstanding, for many of those people since I do not believe the same way they do I am essentially the enemy. Don't forget--the first group of people the Nazis attacked were other Germans.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the neo-Nazis are indeed racists. But aside from the driver of the car who killed Heather Heyer, I haven't really seen any evidence that they are willing to fight for their ideology. They're willing to fight to defend themselves from Leftist violence, but they were there to have a legal rally and say things, not to fight.

They're bad people. But so is the Westborough Baptist Church. It doesn't mean they don't have the right to speak, much less being clubbed by Leftists who have declared war on them.

The group that's being shielded from criticism by the media and the Dems--anitfa--is not only using violence against the KKK and neo-Nazis, they are attacking random people who vote for Trump, journalists who videotape their violence, and they even showed up to Heather Heyer's funeral with masks and clubs.

Quote:

Unlike most of the counterdemonstrators in Charlottesville and elsewhere, members of antifa have shown no qualms about using their fists, sticks or canisters of pepper spray to meet an array of right-wing antagonists whom they call a fascist threat to American democracy. As explained this week by a dozen adherents of the movement, the ascendant new right in the country requires a physical response.

"You need violence in order to protect nonviolence," Ms. Nauert added. "That's what's very obviously necessary right now. It's full-on war, basically."

"When you look at this grave and dangerous threat - and the violence it has already caused - is it more dangerous to do nothing and tolerate it, or should we confront it?" Frank Sabate said. "Their existence itself is violent and dangerous, so I don't think using force or violence to oppose them is unethical."

Another antifa activist, Asha, 28, from Philadelphia, who also declined to give her full name, said that "when people advocate for genocide and white supremacy, that is violence." She added, "If we just stand back, we are allowing them to build a movement whose end goal is genocide."


They are making the classic progressive fallacy of equating ideas with violence, and then justifying fighting ideas with violence. This is EXACTLY what our First Amendment was supposed to protect us from. Force can never be used to silence ideas, no matter how abhorrent those ideas are.

It's simply a fallacy to claim any idea is the same as violence. These people are idiots, ignorant of our history, including the Supreme Court rulings on this very issue. Our highest court found that you can say racist things--even calling for genocide--and your speech is still protected. The only time your speech is not protected is when you're literally inciting violence, in other words, you cause a specific act of violence to occur, in a situation where your words are likely to lead to it. General, vague principles don't fall under that description.

Legal to say: "All blacks should die."
Illegal to say: "Kill that n***** right there!" (Which then leads to that specific man's death.)

Antifa are just WRONG. And given that they're wrong about one of our core American principles, they are also inherently un-American. In addition, the fact that they are openly willing to commit violence in the pursuit of their un-American agenda, they are domestic terrorists, plain and simple.

But the Dems are protecting them from criticism .... hmmm.
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