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Sorus Chatelaine's Redemption
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Sorus Chatelaine's Redemption Reply with quote

Is it really?

On the GI, SRD referred to it and I thought I had mis-remembered her end in C&O. I re-read it recently, and found I disagreed. Here is my point:

Sorus turned on the Amnion at a crucial moment, saving Trumpet and very likely Punisher. History books will say that Soar and her crew are redeemed by their self-sacrifice.

However, Sorus' reasons, given straight from her POV, were self-serving. With Punisher pounding one side of Calm Horizons, the other was exposed to her. She saw an opening to obtain a limitless supply of the antidote she needed and took it. She didn't display any concern for Trumpet or humanity, though she certainly hated the Amnion.

How can this qualify as redemption?

Hopefully I didn't miss an earlier thread on this subject.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few thoughts I had:
-By ensuring her humanity, Sorus shows her concern (or preference) for humanity over the amnion in general.
+Very few characters are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Dios and Morn both take the antidote, even though they know it could doom humanity. If Morn, for instance, represents a "redeemed" or "good" person in your mind, doing something wrong for your own good doesn't mean you're a bad person. Sorus' action, which does good for her own reason is better.
+In general, Donaldson's works do not promote entirely selfless behavior for the sole purpose of furthering/protecting everyone else's lives. There are things
+Why should Sorus care about humanity? Or rather, why should she expect a few people will really change things? I don't remember if donaldson says how sorus was infected, but I always assumed she was sold by outlaws and randomly chosen to be a slow-mutagen infected subject...the sometimes stupid, sometimes incompetent things the UMC and UMCP did to ensure peace with the amnion led to the selling of people to the amnion. She doesn't know that Warden Dios, or anyone else with influence, has any real morals, and without knowledge of the UMCP head people there'd be no reason to expect that Morn and the rest would've accomplished anything.
EDIT:
-After ensuring her own safety, how would she have acted? If vaccine was all she wanted, she could've stayed with the amnion, kept doing their work, it wouldn't have really been too hard. Nah, she's definitely not a big fan of doing what the amnion have her do - like Nick's crew, she has a certain threshold of tolerance for crimes, and selling people off seems to sorta crosses that line for her. But, like many other characters in the gap series, her own life comes first.

EDIT-Sorus' redemption is that she sees "put myself at risk, but do the right thing" or "remain human, but hate what I do". It's not the same thing as "die for sure, or be turned into amnion for sure, but do the right thing" VS "live but don't do the right thing"...but how many martyrs do you want in the world? But I don't really find most of the characters in the gap to be 'heroic' or 'above what anyone could expect' in terms of morality or stuff. Just, most of them manage to deal with their problems, and help their race as a whole as well.

Also, I haven't reread it recently, but was Sorus really expecting to survive? That seems a little naive but whatever.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She had been planning to betray the Amnion since they forced her to destroy the Lab, if not before. When Punisher showed up it meant she might have a chance of surviving, especially after Succorso took out Soar's main weapon.

She didn't care what happened to Trumpet, save that by aiding her it would earn some points with the UMCP. Given her history and the fact that she had nowhere to go but back to human space, there was no other option. (I personally don't believe that the UMCP would have gone so far as to drop all the charges against her, especially if Trumpet's crew had any say in the matter.)

I don't think she gave any consideration to the way history might remember her. She did hope to survive, and I don't think that was particularly naive; she knew the odds were against it.

Did Angus redeem himself? Did Godsen Frik? If her motive had been purely altruistic, would it have made any difference? The outcome would have been the same. Redemption suggests atonement, which implies guilt. I don't think she felt much guilt for her crimes, at least up until Ciro and the Lab. Given that those were pivotal events leading to her finally turning against the Amnion, redemption was the outcome, even if it was not the first thing on her mind.

Not much of an answer, I know. I'll add more later.

And as to:

Holsety wrote:
I don't remember if donaldson says how sorus was infected, but I always assumed she was sold by outlaws and randomly chosen to be a slow-mutagen infected subject...


The Amnion made her 'volunteer' for the experiment as payment for repairs after Soar's battle with Intransigent. They claimed that if it worked she would remain human, and conveniently neglected to mention that she would only retain her humanity for any length of time if she served them. (I can't remember the exact wording, she tells Ciro the whole story about halfway through C&O.)
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holsety,

Good points. Your primary reasoning seems to be about standards:
Quote:
Very few characters are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Dios and Morn both take the antidote, even though they know it could doom humanity.

And:
Quote:
In general, Donaldson's works do not promote entirely selfless behavior for the sole purpose of furthering/protecting everyone else's lives.

We should not denigrate Sorus' deeds without accepting the norm within the situation. In dog-eat-dog circumstances, survival is acceptable. However, should anyone lower their expectations of acceptable behavior? At times, it seems that SRD thinks so. Hell, I think so too, or I'd likely throw both Morn and Angus under the bus.
Quote:
Why should Sorus care about humanity? Or rather, why should she expect a few people will really change things? I don't remember if donaldson says how sorus was infected, but I always assumed she was sold by outlaws and randomly chosen to be a slow-mutagen infected subject...the sometimes stupid, sometimes incompetent things the UMC and UMCP did to ensure peace with the amnion led to the selling of people to the amnion. She doesn't know that Warden Dios, or anyone else with influence, has any real morals, and without knowledge of the UMCP head people there'd be no reason to expect that Morn and the rest would've accomplished anything.

Instead of doing what is right for its sake, we are relieved of responsibility when there is no backup? I know you're referring to Sorus, an unwilling agent of the Amnion, but with nowhere else to go (Gutbuster limped into an Amnion docking station, and in exchange for repairs, agreed to be their agent. To ensure conformity of purpose, they injected her with the mutagen). She's been living the nightmare for too long to risk the reality without reasonable odds.
Quote:
Also, I haven't reread it recently, but was Sorus really expecting to survive? That seems a little naive but whatever.

I have. As far as the text reveals, Sorus would be happy with victory or death. At the end, they seemed to be interchangeable. Either she'd find a cache of the antidote in CH's torn hull, or she'd fail and die human.

What was most important to her was the end of her subservience to the Amnion.
Quote:
After ensuring her own safety, how would she have acted? If vaccine was all she wanted, she could've stayed with the amnion, kept doing their work, it wouldn't have really been too hard. Nah, she's definitely not a big fan of doing what the amnion have her do - like Nick's crew, she has a certain threshold of tolerance for crimes, and selling people off seems to sorta crosses that line for her. But, like many other characters in the gap series, her own life comes first.

Now you've gone too far in defending her. She just destroyed Beckman's entire installation, and violated Ciro to death. How many people is that? She may not like doing it, but her survival is clearly above all of those people.

She's like Angus in that. Even if we accept this one act as selfless (and I don't), she's got a lot to answer for.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just knew if anyone would respond to this, Sorus would. Honor, and all that.
Quote:
The Amnion made her 'volunteer' for the experiment as payment for repairs after Soar's battle with Intransigent. They claimed that if it worked she would remain human, and conveniently neglected to mention that she would only retain her humanity for any length of time if she served them. (I can't remember the exact wording, she tells Ciro the whole story about halfway through C&O.)

Oops. I didn't remember that one correctly. Now that I know where to look it up . . . Reading
Quote:
Redemption suggests atonement, which implies guilt. I don't think she felt much guilt for her crimes, at least up until Ciro and the Lab. Given that those were pivotal events leading to her finally turning against the Amnion, redemption was the outcome, even if it was not the first thing on her mind.

It's difficult to debate the point. Did she want to be redeemed? That depends on whether she felt responsible to anyone beyond Soar and her crew. She does regret destroying the Lab, but her culpability is deflected into anger at Milos and the Amnion. The devil made her do it.

Did she want to be forgiven, or simply free?
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free.

(Good posts folks.)

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Free.

(Good posts folks.)

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i agree on both counts, Av.

good posts and free.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have. As far as the text reveals, Sorus would be happy with victory or death. At the end, they seemed to be interchangeable. Either she'd find a cache of the antidote in CH's torn hull, or she'd fail and die human.

What was most important to her was the end of her subservience to the Amnion.

That's her main redemption at this particular moment.
Quote:
Now you've gone too far in defending her. She just destroyed Beckman's entire installation, and violated Ciro to death. How many people is that? She may not like doing it, but her survival is clearly above all of those people.

I didn't say her survival wasn't above all those people. I'm just saying that I think that's an accurate picture of some people.

Do I think I'd make the same decisions? No, I wouldn't. But do I think I have the right way to condemn how some people think - I will kill for my humanity, life, and basic needs satisfied - in extreme situations? Nah. I think I'd have to go through a lot more than that. But I'm willing to forgive Sorus for who she was, because I think it wouldn't have taken much more to change her entirely.

Again, Morn committed the same crimes. When she took the vaccine, she had no promise of rescue. Not even a glimmer of hope of living her own life as a human (unlike Sorus, who was at least given a promise by a species which is honorable in its own very twisted way). In exchange for moments, hours, days, during which she lived only in terror and panic in contemplation of her (to her) certain fate, she weakened the possibility that the human race would ever survive. In validating her own humanity, she simultaneously surrenders everyone else's.

No, when people are subjected to conditions which offend their very existence, they sometimes strike out, in the process disqualifying themselves as human in the process (ha, I think Camus says something similar in The Rebel about murder and violence). But, if anything, Sorus (and morn and angus, for that matter) represent people redeeming themselves, doing good shit again. Are they back to perfection? Not even close! It's very catholic, however, in my mind, except without divine authority backing it. People can realize that they've done wrong, and that wrong doesn't just mean 'oh no i'm mean to other ppl' but 'my own life is not something I can live with if it continues like this.' And we should help them to this, providing it's not a risk of our own safety, humanity, or whatever else to do so.

Or maybe, like High Lord Mhoram, we should risk everything? Mhoram is an admirable character, I'm not sure if I totally buy him but he's rather compelling. The only real problem with him in the real world is that the salvation of one person's spirit will, sadly enough, never save the world (well, it'd be nice to be proven wrong XD).

I think this is what donaldson is talking about when he says sorus 'replaced' Nick. To him, for one reason or another, truly redeeming nick was impossible. Partially, perhaps, the blame can be laid at morn's feet for that - really, a large ego often punishes beyond what is deserved, and Morn shatters nick's good side when she uses him for her own ends (though I'm not really be angry at her for this). I mean, really, everything Morn does trades the wellbeing of Nick for the wellbeing of her kid, justifiable with stuff like 'mother's love'...but brutal nonetheless.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't say her survival wasn't above all those people. I'm just saying that I think that's an accurate picture of some people.

I didn't interpret your post in that way. In my rush to make one last point, I misspoke. I apologize.

Btw, I enjoy the debate. Masticating the issues (as SRD might say) is another way of relishing the Cycle. Onward . . .
Quote:
If vaccine was all she wanted, she could've stayed with the amnion, kept doing their work, it wouldn't have really been too hard. Nah, she's definitely not a big fan of doing what the amnion have her do - like Nick's crew, she has a certain threshold of tolerance for crimes, and selling people off seems to sorta crosses that line for her.

What I read in your words (once again, my interpretation) was a comparison of Sorus to a member of Nick's crew, such as Mikka. Her level of transgression, without knowing what the Amnion had her doing all those years, is more likely somewhere between Angus and Nick.
Quote:
Again, Morn committed the same crimes. When she took the vaccine, she had no promise of rescue. Not even a glimmer of hope of living her own life as a human (unlike Sorus, who was at least given a promise by a species which is honorable in its own very twisted way). In exchange for moments, hours, days, during which she lived only in terror and panic in contemplation of her (to her) certain fate, she weakened the possibility that the human race would ever survive. In validating her own humanity, she simultaneously surrenders everyone else's.

The same could be said of Sorus (exchanging moments, hours, days for months, years, decades), who could have chosen to die human almost anytime since she was injected. Morn possessed no such control over her humanity.

With all that said, Sorus did what I hoped Nick would do before his end. One brief, semi-honorable act of contrition that is remembered as much, if not more, than anything that happens in TDAGD.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too lazy to give serious replies atm, I've basically set aside reading and thinking about most of your post for some time soon after.

But I will say one thing. Don't feel obliged to apologize just cuz you get someone's POV wrong. If it's easy to misunderstand people offline, it's even easier to do so online, and there's no reason for apology. Indeed, all it (might) mean is that the original person needs to explain their idea better (as I see it anyway).

One of the great things about the internet is because debates take place over protracted periods of time, part of that time can be spent on things which we'd otherwise gloss over (minor pts of misunderstanding and such). "ringer" conclusions help, but they aren't the essence of what goes on because there's always time for clarification as long as both people are read to do it.

And I enjoy clarifying things, it usually makes you have to think through your ideas again and stuff like that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Holsety. I think I might copy it for the 'Tank.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1: Was it copied?
2: ("The Real" Question) Do I get royalties?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1: No, I forgot.

2: Petition for the re-introduction of the WG$ system and we can talk about it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeesh...he'll just paraphrase and get around the royalties thing. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIG BUMP!!

Listening to Gap on Audio (nice to revisit)

Lucimay and I had a discussion about whether Sorus was redeemed. I didn't think so. She did. I read this thread to see if would give me insight (a google search on Sorus Chatelaine Redemption led me right too it!)

Frankly reading different opinions didn't help me settle my mind.

So I decided to look up what in the hell redemption means exactly!

Dictionary.com

reĚdempĚtion [ri-demp-shuhn]

noun
1. an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed.

Do I think Sorus "atoned"? Hell no! Atone means "to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime ..." Sorus didn't feel like she needed to "atone" for anything. [Although she did seem angry that she was forced to blow up the lab.]

BUT, redemption also means

2. deliverance; rescue.

Hmmmmm ... was she "rescued"? Delivered from her bondage? Here I think the answer is YES! Either by death or by getting her supply of anti-mutagen she would be released from the amnion "shackles". And Sorus was prepared for whatever release she could achieve. I guess Lucimay was right; Sorus was redeemed!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you shoulda just said "yes dear".

it woulda saved you all that research time.

Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion hasn't changed since my earlier post.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorus wrote:
... Redemption suggests atonement, which implies guilt. I don't think she felt much guilt for her crimes ...

Not much of an answer, I know. I'll add more later.



Looks like "more" took a few years .... Wink

And it looks like we are agreed!!

Now for a completely different question ... Angus ... ORC? What class? I see Min Donner as a retribution paladin! Hashi ... I wonder what he would be ...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had expected more debate, but the thread died. So it goes.

Hashi would be a rogue. Angus would be a warrior, or maybe a DK. Warrior because they use rage as a resource, but the creation of a death knight could be analogous to being welded.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creator wrote:
2. deliverance; rescue.

Hmmmmm ... was she "rescued"? Delivered from her bondage? Here I think the answer is YES! Either by death or by getting her supply of anti-mutagen she would be released from the amnion "shackles". And Sorus was prepared for whatever release she could achieve. I guess Lucimay was right; Sorus was redeemed!!


Indeed she was, and in a series with lots and lots of surprises, this for me was the most astonishing moment in the Gap. Even though I knew she was most displeased by having to blow up that lab, I just didn't think she had it in her to take on Calm Horizons like she did. It was quite pleasing to be wrong about this. Redeemed herself? Absolutely!!
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