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The Illearth War - Chap 25 - The Seventh Ward
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
I tried to phrase it in such a way as to not draw out an FR spoiler. Because I think that even knowing there is an FR spoiler is a spoiler, in this case. Oh well.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh. Yeah, my fault.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon me for jumping in here,

But regarding Elena bringing Kevin back to battle Foul:

My first thought when I read this was "Wow, what a good plan." I thought a dead Kevin, would be similar to a zombie, in that he could fight all out with no thought or fear of death, pain etc. Was I the only one to be surprised that Foul handled him so easily? In hindsight it's easy for me to see, but at the time I wasn't sure what to expect.

I knew that SRD couldn't have him defeat Foul as the story would be over. I also knew Kevin made some remark that cast doubt on his going to battle LF doing any good before he left to fight. I expected Foul to be able to avoid him or beat him through trickery but never expected Foul to master him and send him back, especially so quickly.

Like I said, not having hindsight, I still did not know the full power of the Illearth Stone.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Was I the only one to be surprised that Foul handled him so easily?


Kevin did warn her

Quote:
Fool!


so I wasn't very surprised that Foul dominated him. I was surprised though (at the time) that Foul sent Kevin back to kill Elena! Shocked
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Questions I guess maybe only SRD might be able to answer...? Reply with quote

I have a couple of questions about the Power of Command:

First, prior to Elena, did anyone drink the Earthblood? We know Kevin didn't.

Because Damelon created his "Door" to keep people away, does this mean he drank some?

If Damelon created the door, then no-one else was able drink it until Kevin created Amok to unlock the door and guide them, or was there another way prior to Amok's creation?

Or DID Kevin drink of the Earthblood (thereby making him the Greatest and most long lived of all the Old Lords) prior to the creation of Amok, and so Amok has no knowledge of it?

And if he did drink of the Earthblood, maybe that is why he didn't attempt it again against Lord Foul, as no mortal can withstand more than a single swallow?

How do they know no-one can withstand more than a single swallow? Did someone try it?

Amok was "undone" after leading Covenant and Elena to the Earthblood; thus his duty was fullfilled. He was brought to life by the awakening of the Krill.

Why wasn't he "remade" or resurrected when Covenant was summoned again to the land (which re-awoke the Krill and let Mhorham know that TC was back in the Land)?

Or when Mhorham came into his own power?

Or in the Second Chronicles, when Covenant retrieved it from Glimmermere?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Questions I guess maybe only SRD might be able to answer Reply with quote

Welcome to the Land, ZR!

AFAIK there's no knowledge of anyone drinking the Earthblood prior to Elena.

I think the knowledge of passing Damelon's Door was passed from Lord to Lord. Amok was the Seventh Ward, which means he was created in preparation for a time when there would be no Lords to pass on the knowledge. Once he had done so, there was no more use for him, as the knowledge could be passed on from Lord to Lord once again.

Or course it's possible that Damelon did, or Kevin did, or anyone, without anyone knowing ... but if the author doesn't mention it, it's really just a game of imagination. (What if their command was to keep their drinking secret?)

As for what the Earthblood does ... we have to trust that the Lords had some lore which could determine this. After all, you could ask, how did the Lord's even know what drinking the Earthblood does, if no one ever did? I believe we must trust that their lore allowed them to understand it without actually using it. And so they could see that it could be used only once, just as they could see that it would not work on Foul, and all the other details.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the greeting, wayfriend; accepting that which is offered honors the giver.

However, my question reguarding Amok still remains, as he states:

"Behold Damelon's Door - entryway of the Power of Command. For this reason among others, none may approach the Power in my absence. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin's Wards. And any who dare Damelon's Door without this unlocking will not find the Power. They will wander forever lorn and pathless in the wilderness beyond."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zal Remmos wrote:
"Behold Damelon's Door - entryway of the Power of Command. For this reason among others, none may approach the Power in my absence. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin's Wards. And any who dare Damelon's Door without this unlocking will not find the Power. They will wander forever lorn and pathless in the wilderness beyond."

Suppose the Old Lords, from Damelon on, had the knowledge to pass Damelon's door. And that Kevin built that knowledge into Amok. Then all the Old Lords passed away. It would now be fair to say that the knowledge exists nowhere except with Amok.

Suppose now that Amok has this knowledge, but will not give it to anyone else. However, he will use it himself to bring others through the door. It would then be fair to say that no one can pass the Door without Amok.

Now, Amok *is* the Seventh Ward. And he clearly has the knowledge. So what, then, does he mean when he says the knowledge is not contained in any of the Wards? I presume it means that this knowledge is not part of what the Wards will give to any new Lords. Amok is not alive, he's an automaton that does what Kevin designed him to do. He doesn't *know* anything, as he's not alive. He can pass Damelon's door because Kevin built him to do it, like a program. But, in terms of being a Ward, he can't convey this knowledge to anyone.

So now everything Amok says makes sense. None may none may approach the Power in my absence. Because no one has the knowledge, but Amok can, as he was programmed by Kevin. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin's Wards. Amok is a Ward, but he cannot give this knowledge to anyone.

Make sense? This is how I look at it, you'd have to make up your own reasoning if you don't like mine.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, Amok is the Seventh Ward; but when asked if he was the Power of the Seventh Ward, he replies, "I am but the Way and the Door."

When asked if he bears the power itself within him, he replies, "No."

When asked/stated that he was a guide, Amok responds "Yes."

So the 7th Ward is merely guidence to the Earthblood.

Now you have likened Amok as a computer program - let's use your analogy.

Think of bringing the Krill to life as clicking on an icon.

When you click on an icon, a program starts.

Why then doesn't he reappear to guide someone else when the Krill is brought to life?

Sorry for beating a dead horse...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it like one of those programs that runs only the first time you hit an icon. Like a welcome screen. And maybe the thinking was whoever was ready to use the Power of Command would then be responsible for deciding to set their own wards going forward.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amok isn't summoned by the krill.

During the time of TIW, he was walking around, noticing things. He noticed when the krill was lit, *and* he noticed Lord Foul attacking the people of the Land, *and* he noticed the presence of the white gold. He did a calculation, and decided to come forward.

But now he's destroyed. He can't come forward again. He was a one-shot.

The specific thing Amok was looking for was the Lord's demonstrating that they had mastered the power of the Sixth Ward. Presumably, mastery of the Sixth Ward would have allowed them to activate the krill at will. So the assumption that lighting the krill in and of itself summons Amok is essentially incorrect anyway. It was only because Amok had a contingency plan that he even appeared.

- - - - - -

But you are correct, in that the Earthblood was the Seventh Ward, not Amok. I goofed up there.

But that actually makes Amok's statements even easier to understand. The knowledge of this unlocking is contained in none of High Lord Kevin's Wards. It is only contained in Amok, and he is not a Ward.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amok was summoned when Covenant stabbed the stone table with the krill, thereby activating it. Activation of the krill was the "trigger" that let Amok know that the Lords had mastered the Sixth Ward. When he appeared to the Council, Mhoram told him that they did not intentionally activate the krill, and realizing that the Lords did not have the Sixth Ward mastered, Amok disappeared. Later, as WF said, he saw the peril of the Land and the presence of white gold and reappeared to the Lords at Revelwood.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was the chapter where I hate Elena.

Her stupidity in calling Kevin from the dead was bad enough (seriously, how can he defeat Lord Foul now when he has the Illearth stone if he couldn't do it when it was just Foul?) but what really made me despise her was her callousness towards Amok.

Sure he wasn't naturally born and had to follow Kevin's commandments but the dude was a living being with a right for regard or compassion from others. His travels between Kevin's fall and his appearance after the Krill's awakening prove that he's not just a mindless automaton if his behavior in this book doesn't prove it.

Here he is dying ('I'm melting...!') and Elena doesn't spare him a glance. Couldn't she stabilize him with her staff or at least tried? No. Why should she care about him now that she obtained the power he promised her? At this point I became certain she wasn't worthy of wielding the Power of Command. If she didn't have enough compassion to help a helpless creature in need how could she be trusted to command creation?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: - Chap 25 - The Seventh Ward Reply with quote

Amok's passing touched me; Elena's lack of regard in this matter never particularly got to me, even upon my first reading of TIW I'd gotten the feeling she was on the brink of her personal apocalypse by that stage, and that the 'other' gaze of her eyes was about to rear it's ugly head in an unexpected and damaging way .. she was too far gone to even consider such things ..
Amoks fate *did* make me reflect upon Kevin himself though; what kind of person/High Lord would fashion such a making as Amok; as near to human as you can get (the 7th ward was such a charming fellow !!) knowing full well that his creation would dissolve to dust upon fulfillment of Kevin's purpose ?
It struck me as kinda callous and self-serving to bring such a being to life, and to give him such human-like qualities, the ability to experience and appreciate life itself (riding sandgorgons, muckin' 'round with the Elohim; these acts may have been but a tall tale of Amok's to illustrate his own worldliness, but it hinted at his love of life) only to discard it once he'd achieved his (Kevin's) designs ? Poor ol' Amok, one of my very fave chronicles characters "ah Kevin ! Life is sweet, and I have lived so short a time !"
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused; didn't Elena salute Amok when he passed away?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear your reasons against Elena, but I guess I'll always be in the Hile Troy camp....deeply in love with Elena and willing to overlook all her weaknesses. To me she was the character that burned with the brightest light and I could understand Covenant being unable to turn away from her flame despite her being his daughter.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elena did salute Amok but in my opinion something had broken in her. Perhaps it was a lust for power (or her perception of power) that she thought she was going to have. Perhaps it was simply the desire to break on of the 'laws'. But it was right after then and just before she took the drink of the Earlthblood that TC says that he had perceived a wrong or was seeing a wrong but couldnt quite put his finger on it. And then all of a sudden he realized the wrong was Elena!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elena put the monkey on Covenant's back because of the white gold. When he couldn't do anything, she did the only thing she knew to do. It would not have occurred to me to bring anyone back from the dead. I might have summoned something much stupider, like the ur-Viles or something. Duh.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HL Elena always disturbed me because she acted seductively toward her own biological father. To TC's credit, he resisted for the most part.

IRL too often it's the parent taking advantage of the child in incestuous relationships (read "child sexual abuse").

Anyway, just wondering if the fact of the rape--the initial seducing and abandoning of Lena--is the flaw that works out to be Elena's madness/delusion.

No-one I know where I am now has read these books, so this forum is a great place!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The character Elena always struck me as the consequences of a " guilt" held for long term. Elena had to be dispensed of and it was only up to the author's creativity as to the How. SRD created her and SRD had to bring her existence to an end. Yes, the tragic Insanity of holding a guilt for long term seemed to me, to be expressed by the author thru the character, Elena.
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