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The Illearth War - Chap 25 - The Seventh Ward
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: - Chap 25 - The Seventh Ward Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
Amok's passing touched me

Me, too. He went from this cheery, playful, free spirit to someone who had suddenly recognized their mortality.

SleeplessOne wrote:
Amoks fate *did* make me reflect upon Kevin himself though; what kind of person/High Lord would fashion such a making as Amok; as near to human as you can get (the 7th ward was such a charming fellow !!) knowing full well that his creation would dissolve to dust upon fulfillment of Kevin's purpose ?
It struck me as kinda callous and self-serving to bring such a being to life, and to give him such human-like qualities, the ability to experience and appreciate life itself (riding sandgorgons, muckin' 'round with the Elohim; these acts may have been but a tall tale of Amok's to illustrate his own worldliness, but it hinted at his love of life) only to discard it once he'd achieved his (Kevin's) designs ? Poor ol' Amok, one of my very fave chronicles characters "ah Kevin ! Life is sweet, and I have lived so short a time !"

Very well put, SleeplessOne, but isn't this the case for any sentient being? Length of time (and length of life) is a relative thing. We were all made with death in mind. Kevin didn't know how long Amok would "live" and of course neither did Amok. Very BladeRunner-esque for those of you familiar with that movie. Amok lived a very long time especiall compared to Las Vegas' odds on my lifespan. Laughing I suspect at the end we will all think our life was a little on the short side.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notaraver wrote:
Anyway, just wondering if the fact of the rape--the initial seducing and abandoning of Lena--is the flaw that works out to be Elena's madness/delusion.

If I understand your question, you're asking if Lena's rape caused Elena's madness. Right?

Well, there's no way of telling exactly what might and might not have contributed to Elena's madness. Her madness may have been caused by the sum total of many contributing factors - change one, and she turns out different. I'm sure her mother's experiences had something to do with it - the rape, not having a father, Triock's care, the visits from the Ranyhyn - I'm sure all contributed.

But my gut instinct has always been that she grew up being the daughter of the ur-Lord, and that had to instill in her a messiah complex.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

But my gut instinct has always been that she grew up being the daughter of the ur-Lord, and that had to instill in her a messiah complex.
I haven't thought about this in a long time, so I can't be as insightful as I could if I'd just read the book. But I think this is a very good point. Think about that: the daughter of Berek reborn. That's got to mess with any kid. Now, throw in the fact that this "Berek" figure raped her mother . . . that contradiction would only exacerbate the stress of being such a unique child. There's the pride of being the ur-Lord's child, combined with the shame of her conception. Throw in some anger for how her mother was treated, and the way Covenant turned her family into the most disfunctional family in the Land's history, and we're talking major f-ed up child.

Given this family status, she was already set up to misinterpret the Ranyhyn's gift. And that misinterpretation fueled her madness even further.

So when she finally meets Covenant, she meets him outside of the "proper" temporal flow of her time. Covenant isn't old enough to be her father. He's old enough to be her lover. Imagine going back in time and meeting your own mother . . . and she's hot! Ok, that's very weird; if you don't want to think of your own parent, think about Back to the Future. That kind of conflict. In addition, lots of very young kids have a thing for their mother or father. You know, Freud and all that. Oedipus. So Elena meets her father--the Land's savior--at a time when she is sexually mature, and carrying all the above baggage.

I think that she is so intent upon suppressing her rage at him (possibly without even knowing it), that she overcompensates like crazy. She is a walking, breathing child of paradox, and she tries to repress one half of that paradox. Thus, not only does this manifest itself in terms of too much acceptance of Covenant (to put it mildly), but the cognitive dissonance unseats her sanity.

This is one of the most interesting relationships in the entire Chronicles. From Covenant's perspective, it's even more complicated. She is High Lord, his daughter, a beautiful woman (who might not be real . . . so why the hell not? Twisted Evil ), and a way out of his own personal paradox of action/inaction. She represents a way for him to put off taking a stand.

This kind of temptation is downright insidious. Donaldson is the devil. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're saying it was Covenant's reappearance that pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure.

Her insanity seems to manifest on a hatred for Lord Foul. Not regular hatred, but I'm-gonna-kill-em-myself hatred. The source of that other look she gets.

And that was there before Covenant appeared. Something Donaldson said once seemed to imply that the Lords new about it when they made her High Lord. But they did anyway because they saw an opportunity for good that they measured as greater than the chance for evil.

I think her insanity drove her to become the greatest Lord. Because it focused on a need to fight Lord Foul.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
2.) How is it that the other Lords, including Mhoram who was seer and oracle, had no indication of her insanity? Why did even mind melds between the counsel fail to indicate her flaw? A mutual decision was made that she possessed the qualities necessary to face the challenges of the upcoming war; how could they have been so wrong?
    2) The Lords who selected Elena to lead them were not "so wrong." This is a novel about paradox, remember. Elena was the perfect choice in the same sense that Covenant was the perfect choice. So she was discernibly unbalanced. So what? So was he. The other Lords--especially Mhoram--knew that she would (to borrow a phrase) "save or damn" the Land; and they chose to believe that she would save it, just as they chose to believe that Covenant would. None of them existed on the knife-edge of possibility in the same way that Elena--and Covenant--did. And they could so easily have been validated by the outcome, if she had simply made a different decision at the moment when she tasted the EarthBlood. Only characters with epic flaws are capable of epic victories. So I would argue that the issue isn't that the other Lords "had no indication of her insanity": they simply didn't think in those terms. They didn't ask, "Is she sane?" but rather, "Is she capable?" And in those terms, they made the best possible choice.

    (02/05/2005)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think you're saying it was Covenant's reappearance that pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure.
No, I was mainly trying to expand on your point, and then found I had more to say than I originally thought.

I was saying that there was already plenty of reason for her to be "unbalanced" even before the Ranyhyn tarn, simply because of who her parents were, as you said, the daughter of the messiah.

As far as your point about her hatred of Lord Foul, I don't disagree. But I think I could spin it to fit my points. If she was faced with the cognitive dissonance of wanting to love her father, and yet hating him for what he did, this could manifest itself by hating something else; redirecting her hate. This would make even more sense if she were excusing Covenant by blaming Foul for his actions, as a way to make sense of them.

And in terms of the symbolism, this isn't too far off. After all, Foul is the part of Covenant that hates himself, that causes him to do the horrible things he does. But rather than a devil-temptation scenario, we can only blame Covenant himself. So Elena's hatred of Foul IS her hatred of her father, in a F-ed up kind of way.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to reread that chapter but I always thought that TC's climax inside Lena had a little "Wild Magic element" of some kind.
I always attributed that to why Elena was a little odd/dangerous.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that one aspect of the reason that Elena offered herself sexually to TC was that she was (consciously or subconsciously) saying that you can't rape me like you did my mother since I am willing. Kinda like an off-kilter self-protection.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I need to reread that chapter but I always thought that TC's climax inside Lena had a little "Wild Magic element" of some kind.
I always attributed that to why Elena was a little odd/dangerous.

Yes, there's some reference to "wild white fire striking between her legs" or something like that.

And I think that's an important point... along w/ all the psychological things, Elena is genetically imprinted by the wild magic which destroys peace.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think you're saying it was Covenant's reappearance that pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure.


I swear I haven't been looking through the GI for quotes to prove you wrong . . . honest! But I was looking through it today, and found this:


Quote:
The problem with such questions--and my answers--is that we tend to talk about Elena's mental state as if it were binary, either on or off, sane or crazy. But there are many hues and degrees of mental imbalance, and we all have them. Under the right circumstances--and the right kind of pressure--any of us might do something crazy. If Covenant had never returned to the Land, Elena might have been a fine High Lord.

Clues to her imbalance? Well, the fact that she has a "thing" for her father (a known rapist) is certainly a sign that something is out of whack.

(10/11/2006)


Anyway, I was looking through the GI for the exact wording Donaldson used to describe the clues he left in the 2nd Chronicles for the Last Chronicles. Does anyone remember how he worded this? I'm framing a GI question along these lines . . .

[Edit: I found the quote I was looking for. I should have done a search for "seeds" instead of "clues."]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 wrote:
Quote:
If Covenant had never returned to the Land, Elena might have been a fine High Lord.

That's pretty much identical (in my mind) with his other quote above: [The Lords] could so easily have been validated by the outcome, if she had simply made a different decision at the moment when she tasted the EarthBlood.

It's not that she wasn't unbalanced before Covenant came. It's that her unbalance might not have led to catastrophe if Covenant never came.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does no one else find it interesting that TC's bargain metastasized in Elena?

With his second bargain TC attempts to get Elena to accept his responsibility for defeating LF and saving the Land - to get himself off the hook. Then, after he admits this to her she essentially accepts the terms of his bargain.
Quote:
You need not have bargained in secret. I love you. I wish to serve you.


Then, as she prepares to fulfill her lifelong desire to fight LF,
Quote:
Ward yourself well, Fangthane! I seek to destroy you!!!
she wastes her chance by transferring the responsibility to Kevin...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When Covenant raised his head from the bucking floor, he saw Kevin within the stone--furiously poised, fists cocked. Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

"Fool!" he cried in a paroxysm of anguish. "Damned betrayer! You have broken the Law of Death to summon me--you have unleashed measureless opportunities for evil upon the Earth--and the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! The Illearth Stone consumes me. Fight, fool! I am Commanded to destroy you!"

Roaring like a multitude of fiends, he reached down and clutched at Elena.

She did not move. She was aghast, frozen by the result of her great dare.

But Morin reacted instantly. Crying, "Kevin! Hold!" he sprang to her aid.

The specter seemed to hear Morin--hear and recognize who he was. An old memory touched Kevin, and he hesitated. That hesitation gave Morin time to reach Elena, thrust her behind him. When Kevin threw off his uncertainty, his fingers closed around Morin instead of the High Lord.

He gripped the Bloodguard and heaved him into the air.

Kevin's arm passed easily through the rock, but Morin could not. He crashed against the ceiling with tremendous force. The impact tore him from Kevin's grasp. But that impact was sufficient. The First Mark fell dead like a broken twig.


Here is where the distrust of using any kind of lore betrays the ability of this Haruchai to protect Elena. If Morin had thought to drink the EarthBlood and Commanded Kevin to throw off the effects of the Illearth Stone, this crisis would have ended.

Likewise, if Covenant had thought to drink of the EarthBlood to restore Kevin's independence rather than worrying about using his ring when Bannor asks him to save Elena, she would have been effectively saved. Maybe Kevin could then even advise Bannor towards making a wise Command that would frustrate Foul. Ah, hindsight!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Blood of the Earth should not have been used. Disaster was the result. The solution cannot be to use it more ... that's just making a bad situation worse. Remember, the consequences of the Power of Command cannot be foreseen - using it hurriedly, without deliberation, for some specific end would only create more unexpected, unintended consequences. I wouldn't recommend it. Damelon, Loric, and Kevin were wise.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The Blood of the Earth should not have been used. Disaster was the result. The solution cannot be to use it more ... that's just making a bad situation worse. Remember, the consequences of the Power of Command cannot be foreseen - using it hurriedly, without deliberation, for some specific end would only create more unexpected, unintended consequences.


Hmmph. Personally, I'd have used the Command to make the Ranyhyn indestructible. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin's not drinking the EarthBlood to Command Kevin means that he fails to protect Elena and the Staff of Law, and this also has far-reaching, unforeseen consequences. Kevin must have sensed the potential for EarthBlood to be used for good, even if he didn't avail himself of it, or otherwise he wouldn't have created Amok at all.

How about this idea, wayfriend: the EarthBlood is drank to command the Earth to swallow and crush Fleshharrower's army completely. What could possibly go wrong? The Earth gets massive indigestion from swallowing so much evil that Covenant is compelled to bring it a oversized Tums antacid tablet from beyond the Arch of Time, to be slipped into it via Rivenrock? Wink

(Seriously, wayfriend, it's fun discussing this book with somebody, so thanks for your participation! I've enjoyed my latest re-read of TIW, and the revival of these TIW dissection threads was long overdue! We can agree on that much, can't we?? Mr. Green )
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Across the millennia of the collected Chrons story arc, might not the ingestion of Fleshharrower and his army result in the evil being distilled around the Stone fragment into a new Bane, warping the area around the Deep and providing a loose-end upon which to base another Chrons arc?

Would the Black River need to be turned into a river of viscous pink Pepto liquid? How about an Amok-like character named Speedy who speaks ambiguously about plopping and fizzing? Perhaps there is a role for a male ox?

I'll stop now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord, I'm just saying that Donaldson makes it pretty clear that you shouldn't mess with the Blood of the Earth for any reason. And I believe him! So I don't think saving Elena is worth the risk.

But if you are willing ... you could get rid of those pesky Ravers, I think. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no such thing as an action that is free of any possibility of unintended consequences. We are all stepping on butterflies every moment. The weapon can turn on the hand that wields it. White gold can damn or save. And Foul, who has a hell of a lot of experience and imagination, is always there to take advantage of whatever he can. Covenant, always terrified of power, never pushed his luck. He usually used wild magic as a physical force. Nothing that could be twisted. Elena, dumber than a bag or hammers, warned by many, fully aware that those with much greater experience with power and plenty of time to think of a good use for the Power of Command didn't use it, thought resurrection would be a good idea.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Across the millennia of the collected Chrons story arc, might not the ingestion of Fleshharrower and his army result in the evil being distilled around the Stone fragment into a new Bane, warping the area around the Deep and providing a loose-end upon which to base another Chrons arc?

Would the Black River need to be turned into a river of viscous pink Pepto liquid? How about an Amok-like character named Speedy who speaks ambiguously about plopping and fizzing? Perhaps there is a role for a male ox?

I'll stop now.


Mr. Green

Eeek You've convinced me, Savor Dam! From now on, EarthBlood will no longer be a main ingredient in my Bloody Mary mix! Cheers (Unintended consequences, indeed!) Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
But if you are willing ... you could get rid of those pesky Ravers, I think. Twisted Evil



I like this! Twisted Evil
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