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Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?
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Tohrm
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:29 am    Post subject: Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan? Reply with quote

This is a question that I have pondered and would like some input on. After all, how could the creator save TC's life in our world, and how could LF have the ability to use his influence in our world?
The creator did not seem to have any problems moving into our world, or to move TC back with ease, and healed at that!
But at the same token, LF did appear to have some problems with the way he did things here. Could the land actually be the prison of our satan, and three of his other fallen angels?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:36 am    Post subject: Wow--very interesting!!! Reply with quote

I think we've had some discussions along these lines in the old forum (HC would have 2 find the link(s). As 1 of my best friends recently said 2 me when I mentioned Thomas Covenant, "Oh aren't the books about some guy who lives in his own personal hell and then finds out it's real?" Pretty heavy analysis from some1 who's never even cracked the Chrons Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting question Tohrm .. so if the Creator is the god of our world also and LF the same that is represented as evil/satan in our world .. then presumbably the Land is what? Hell? I dont think so. And what of the inhabitants of that realm? Are they just unfortunate pawns stuck in a hell dimension with 'satan'/LF as their overseer?

At first I wondered if there could be some relationship here .. but on reflection the inhabitants of the Land stand as arguement against this probability imo. There are many players in this plot .. and once you factor the entire picture into that scenario it doesnt ring 'true'.

There must be some relationship between the 2 worlds as you say .. for how else could TC and others be moved from one world to the other .. but what that relationship actually is .. is harder to state.

If we set Foul aside for one minute and ponder the possibility of the Creator being also the god/creator of this world .. ?? well .. if we look at the words of the creator he lays no claim on our earth...[color=blue]


In TPTP 'A Lepers End' [ch 21]
Quote:
Your world runs by Law, as does mine.
...


Quote:
You have retrieved my Earth from the brink of dissolution.


TC asks him to save FF to which the Creator replies;
Quote:
No. Thomas Covenant-I cannot. Have I not told you that I would break the arch of tTime if I were to put my hand thorugh it to touch the EArth?


So it seems that the Creator is restrained from putting forth his hand to stay the imminent demise of one of his own creations but this did not bind him from saving TC in our world.

I believe that the 2 worlds are seperate and distinct .. yet interconnected .. and perhaps they are governed by seperate Creators .. with yet similar Laws. Universal laws that exist beyond the existence of a Creator.

I always found this statement interesting ..


Quote:
Gods and creators are too powerful and powerless for despair


Clearly the Creator was fallible .. as demonstrated by his need of TC to save His world .. maybe all Creators are similarly powerful and powerless when it comes to acts of intervention.

that just really intrigues me .. somewhat .. as does this fascinating question you have raised. Wink

oh and a thought about Foul being 'satan' in our world .. how does he infact represent evil in our world .. what power does he have over the hearts of humankind here? To do what he managed in the 2nd chrons when he appeared at the bonfire at TC and Lindens summoning .. took a great deal of his strength .. so to influence the minds of unsuspecting souls here in our world would be a task he doesn't seem up to fulfilling

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a thought about that as well. According to everything that I have been taught through the years, Satan, or Lucifer or whatever name he goes by was cast down out of Heaven by our Creator (God). And Heaven itself is so splendid a place that no matter where he ends up is actually going to be 'hell' by comparison.
The closest comparison that I can come up with in our mere mortal realm is this: Imagine being born to a life of opulence and luxury. A multi-million dollar home, servants, anything and everything that you could possibly ever want or desire at a mere wish. And then losing it all, becoming so destitute that the only place you can find to live is in the worst of the worst neighborhoods. The ghetto of the ghettoes, the slum of the slums.
Satan was one of the top angels of Heaven so all that there was there was available to him. When he was cast down, he was imprisoned. And since there is absolutely nothing that can compare to heaven, even my comparison pales by what is really supposed to be. Therefore, any mortal realm must be truly like 'hell' in comparison. And another small thing that I seem to remember is that this being is supposed to be tormented. What better way to torment him than to see the work that he has accomplished be destroyed? Every escape attempt foiled? Especially one that has taken millenia to put together. That has got to be one of the biggest slaps in the face to have them thwarted, and by mere mortals at that! I cannot even begin to imagine the pure rage that Foul has to have experienced when he was thwarted not just once, but twice at the hands of TC.
TC has had a wealth of insight to see just what it would take to defeat Fouls' well laid plans.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to log in again! Embarassed That last posting was mine.
Another point is that while you are in prison, it does take a whole lot more energy and time to accomplish anything on the outside.
It is possible that the land is nothing more than an alternate dimension, and the creator is a brother of our God, to have the same powers of creation. But by the same token, in our bible it is stated that "I am the only God". Is that just a subjective statement? That he is the only God in our dimension? I don't think so.
I have the funny feeling that if the AOT is broken, that LF will be free to run throughout all of the alternate realities/dimensions. That unless he is caught by the creator and imprisoned in another world of his making, that he would be able to wreak havoc wherever he goes. After all, he has shown nothing but contempt for life and good.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

where is it written that 'God is the only God' .. I am curious .. and who is he talking to? I think this denotes no more than that He asserts to the inhabitants of this 'His' world that He is the only God they need concern themselves with.

And the creator clearly asserts that He is the God of that world .. actually now that I think of it .. I dont think he declares himself a God at all .. does he?

So lets drop the god analogy and speak in terms of creator's .. its a subtle distinction but one worth making in the context of your querie .

In the 'earth' there is LF .. in our world why cant we have our own LF being? Does it have to be only one creator and one destroyer for both? I think not.

As you say yourself .. the Satan being was cast 'down' .. 'down' from an immortal realm to a mortal one.. so then why the need to send him to a seperate dimension or reality from this mortal one .. to an entirely different world? A seperate world where we keep all our evil?? I dont think so? Then what of the inhabitants of the creators world that TC met .. what is their role?? Just simply to be pawns in a hell dimension .. just bad luck for them that they get stuck with our devil??

To me they cant be the same? It doesnt seem logical .. let alone credible ..
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to your first question, look in Isaiah 46:9.
Quote:
I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me.

And as for the inhabitants of the land, I do not see them as pawns. Rather i see them as jailers. Sure, LF is bound in his own personal prison, bound within the AOT. But in every prison, there are jailers running around to make sure that the prison doesn't become a scene such as in the movie 'Escape from New York'. Plus, in a real sense, they are tormentors of LF. It appears as if he gets absolutely no enjoyment from life. But here are people all around him who are enjoying life at almost every turn. They are not miserable, at least until he messes it up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, i did not intend for this to become a religious topic per se. I just wanted some input on what I thought could be an interesting corelation topic.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a very good topic of conversation, however, when it does turn religious, people can get a little strange - or shall I say passionate - about their views. Anyway, LF was imprisoned by the AoT by the Creator but the Land was NOT intended as a prison. If I recall correctly, the story goes that the Creator made the Land and, while his back was turned, LF came by and was trying to ruin it so the Creator made the AoT, imprisoning LF. Also, I recall LF being the brother of the Creator. I think this whole story is told by Atiaran in LFB. I don't have a copy to check up on it Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOu are absolutely correct Caamora .. the Creator created a thing of beauty only to find that when his back was turned LF had placed banes in it .. The Creator when he placed the AoT over his creation .. sealed in Foul also ..

and LF is mentioned as being the Creator's brother .. which is a little different from the christian viewpoint on the God/Satan relationship thingy ..

anyway .. I still see the inhabitants of the Land .. creating the incongruity in this notion ..
Quote:
LF's gaolers/tormentors
.. this earth was created for them .. inteded for them .. to live in and to enjoy and fulfill the measure of their creation within it .. not to be LF's gaolers/tormentors .. and without their knowledge or consent to be a party to such a notion.

LF is analogous to maybe our Satan figure/concept in our world .. perhaps .. and the Creator obviously also analogous to 'a God figure' in our world .. I dont see the relationship between worlds and godlike/immortal-universal characters extending to anything beyond that .. imo.

Also SRD writes the God/Satan belief that many peoples religions in our world adhere to .. as shallow and unattractive .. yet he presents the Creator of the Land .. as a fallible 'god-like' being .. that he accepts and upholds in his writing as a character of power that he clearly can sympathise with and relate to. The people of the Land dont seem to worship this creator .. and only share knowledge of a Creator type figure in their tales .. ledgends of their earths making.

The two scenarios seem quite different .. I find it interesting that the earth has a Creator .. and he is an extemely intriguing character .. fallible yet all powerful .. I like this notion of a Creator .. he is different from many popular notions of a 'God' in our world .. He is more like us .. more .. human ..
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is true. But there is also the view that our world was created for us. I don't believe that our God intended for him to have the ability to have the personal contact that it seems that he is capable of. I am thinking of when satan was tempting Jesus. At that point, it appears as if satan has an ability to walk amongst us, as LF has the ability to walk in the land. It would be kind of interesting to find out just where ol' scratch is at now, what incarnation he has assumed. That is unless he is imprisoned someplace within the planet. But somehow, I don't believe that is the case.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 6:33 pm    Post subject: Where old scratch is: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Real interesting discussion. Here is a different perspective about the creator I've been toying with.

I remember reading an interview with SRD, and he was asked if he was religious. He answered that he treats storytelling as religiously as others do Christianity (or something along this line of thought).
In a way I think SRD identifies with the creator. The creator sets the stage and builds the characters, and at some point the story establishes a life of it's own, and it isn't in the creator's hands any more. He becomes an instrument though which the story is told.

This all sounds fine until I try to fit LF into this theory, I just can't figure out what is the analog to LF. Maybe the creator's brother is the part of himself that is impeling him away from the perfection of his creation, taking away his attention, so that he is not fully engaged in the story-telling, and allows 'banes' into the creation.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:16 pm    Post subject: A Connection Reply with quote

I do think there are some connections, whether there are connections by design or not is a good question.
satan (he never gets a capital letter from me) was high in the echelon and entered Earth to cause trouble. LF was high as well. satan and LF both pretty much had control of their respective worlds. God could not get rid of satan by just throwing him out, and The Creator could not do the same with LF. Both had to be defeated by a saviour, and both had to seem to die (Jesus broke the law of death as well by being resurrected). I'm sure there are some more, but the brain is weary today.
Great discussion topic. I hope I did not get too zealous, and I hope I didn't offend anyone.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes I believe you have a point there Bannor .. once you mentioned the need of a Saviour .. and that that saviour would break the law of death .. but in the chrons we know it wasnt TC that broke the law of death .. so as far as there are unquestionable similarities .. I believe there are also significant differences.

SRD clearly has drawn some parallels to christian notions of religion .. aswell as perhaps other notions too! But when you asked the question Tohrm ..

Quote:
Is The creator Our Creator, and Lord Foul Our Satan?


You are not asking are there parallels between the two sets of characters but are they (Creator-God .. LF-Satan) .. the same beings/characters?

Quote:
After all, how could the creator save TC's life in our world, and how could LF have the ability to use his influence in our world? The creator did not seem to have any problems moving into our world, or to move TC back with ease, and healed at that!


So what infact then do you mean by this question?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was asking if they were one and the same. The parallels have been numerous and I was wondering if anybody else had noticed them as well as I had.
I really don't think that SRD intentionally wanted all of these parallels to creep in so that there could even be a discussion along this thread. But it has happened. Also, here is another question that would go along with this. Would our 'creator', ie God, even allow another creator to come into His universe? Or were there behind the scenes deals between the two of them to allow the lands' creator to come in and 'scope out' the people that would come into the land for its' defense? And by the same token, would our creator even allow LFs' influence in our world?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that's an awfully interesting question .. was a deal struck between the Creators of each world? Well .. lets see .. we learn through SRD's Land that there are rules .. laws governing his earth .. so lets assume there are also laws governing our earth .. ie: an AoT placed to preserve the creation within a time and space context .. and that the Creator of SRD's Land prefers to limit his involvement within his creation to allow his offspring to fulfill the measure of their own creation.

Lets say similar laws apply to this 'earth'. If through law .. beings of another existence could penetrate this earth .. then their presence would be validated .. not necessarily welcomed. For example through law/lore those of the Land discovered that they could 'summon' a being from another dimension/world/universe .. hence they access our world.

Perhaps all Creators have the same repsect for law/lore .. and only predicated upon these prinicples are such translations achieved.

I have to go .. but I will be back to discuss this more .. this is fascinating in the extreme!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You bring up a couple of good points yourself, but there is one I have to shoot down. The creator of SRDs' land cannot under any circumstances involve himself to help His children in the land. If He did, he would have broken the AoT. I think that it was LF who summoned TC, but the Creator came over to our land to check him out before he came to the land. It was as if the Creator had foreknowledge of what LF was trying to do, and why not? Creators are supposed to be omniscient, aren't they?. Sure, he gave TC a small clue of what was about to happen with his note, but at that point he was not meddling in His land, he was working in our land.
But the point that I agree with is the one that perhaps creators give each other a little leeway in trying to support the laws and strictures of each others' realms. Otherwise there would be choas that could spill over between 'dimensions of reality'.
But that still does not explain how our Creator would even allow such a being as LF, who is so patently evil, to even get the time of day from this world.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not forget that our Creator has rules to follow also. For example, He cannot work in our lives without our permission. I believe that this is a common enough belief in many christian religions. That is our freedom of choice given to us by God himself. So when you say that our Creator would not let someone as evil as LF in our world, I think that you may have forgotten that we have our own despiser - satan.

(Please forgive me if I sound as if I'm adamant Wink )
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In ch 21 TPTP Leper's End we read
Quote:
"You did not choose this task. You did not undertake it of your own free will. It was thrust upon you. Blame belongs to the chooser, and this choice was made by one who elected you without your knowldege"


So who was the chooser?? LF as you suggest?? .. or was it indeed the Creator in a more passive-active role??

Quote:
Covenant did not need to ask who was speaking; he recognised the voice. It belonged to the old begtgar who had confronted him before his first experience in th Land - the old man who had urged him to keepo his wedding band, and had made him read a paper on the fundamental question of ethics.


The old man who had 'urged' him to keep his wedding band ...

Dimly he replied, 'You must have been sure of yourself.'

TC himself identifies the chooser .. as the old beggar man .. or as we now know the Creator himself.

Quote:
'Sure? Ah no. There was great hazard- risk for the world which I made - risk even for me. Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth - destroyed it so that he might hurl himself against me. No, Thomas Covenant. I risked my trust in you. My own hands were bound. I could not touch the earth to defend it witout thereby undoing what I meant to preserve. Only a free man could hope to stand against my enemy, hope to preserve the Earth.'


'I risked my trust in you' the Creator declared to TC .. but then in the next paragraph if we were in any doubt he states that he indeed was the chooser.

Quote:
'Choiceless you were given the power of choice.' I elected you for the Land .


ok so in electing TC for the Land .. he did intervene in the natural course of his own world .. In determining to translate TC from the realm of another world/dimension .. he was intervening .. albeit in a more passive fashion .. than placing his hand directly in the Land and crushing Foul himself .. or doing any act directly with the intent of saving his world.

So even though he intervenes bv electing an offworlder (TC) as a vehicle to 'save or damn' his world .. he takes the risk .. and by so doing he limits his involvement in his world to .. maybe just that act (and related acts) .. allow his offspring to fulfill their measure of their creation.

So the Creator it seems did a lot more than just give TC a small clue as to what to expect .. according to his own words .. he elected TC .. not Foul as he might like to believe he did .. Which sits well with our understanding of Creators doesnt it? They are totally aware of all that transpires in their worlds .. It would seem that not only did the Creator elect TC .. but he allowed LF to attempt a translation via Drool Rockworm .. and later Mhoram via the lore of summoning.

And as for LF being allowed by our Creator .. well .. to me .. LF via Drool .. exercised the lore of summoning .. it was the lore that opened the gateway between the worlds .. wielded by Drool .. and it is the lore that accessed TC ..

Anyone can turn on a light switch .. no matter how evil .. and still access the supply of electricity that powers the light globe .. because the light operates under scientific law .. There are laws in the universe that work for anyone that work within them .. for example if you fall out of a plane .. gravity will cause you to fall to earth .. no matter the elevated state of your morality or not .. it is law .. There is no gravity in space .. blaah blaah blaah .. regardless of how good or evil you are .. for you there is still no gravity in space ..

So my point is .. LF through Drool accessed TC through law ..

And as far as how The Creator in our world would allows patently evil LF access to his world .. the same God allows evil to reign in its many forms in this world .. and good .. because his creation is left to fulfill its own measure of its creation .. is given free will .. as is needed.
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