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Was SRD aware of the Insequent before the Last Chronicles?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherlock said:
Quote:
I just want to throw another idea into the mix: There were a lot of unknowns in this series: who was Kenaustin, were Berek learned of the One Tree, that sort of thing. It's possible SRD (between TRoE and FR) decided to tie this stuff together.


Nah, I doubt that. I don't really see how SRD could have envisioned the need for or even the existence of a race as apparently important as the Insequent between books one and two of this last series. But what I don't understand is this: Even if he didn't know how to write these Insequent 20-odd years ago when he was writing the Second Chronicles, why didn't he at least drop a hint about their existence?

I'll bet the conception of the Insequent took place in his imagination only after he was done writing the Second Chronicles. Otherwise, he'd've given us a clue to their existence.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Hmmm.... Reply with quote

Whether or not SRD envisioned them prior to this series or laid groundwork
for their appearance the result remains.

I believe the real cause for the enmity of the Elohim and the Insequent
is that the Elohim feel invalidated by the Insequent and the Insequent are
merely offended by the arrogance and self-absorbedness of the elohim.

(Get ready for Chant's humility speech in AATE in 2-3 years).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of ideas:

Are we sure that Kaseryn is not an Insequent? His specialization is consistent the single-minded focus of that race. And his appearance (though not his name) is consistent. However he does use a Croyel.

More importantly, what if the introduction of the Insequent hasn't happened in the previous Chronicles because it hasn't happened yet?

Meaning, that perhaps if the Insequent are related or similar to the race of the Creator and/or Foul (which explains their power, solitary nature, and temporal knowledge and pertinence) ... perhaps they were allowed into the Arch of Time at a future point. Perhaps by Covenant to repair time and/or maintain the timeline?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penryn wrote:
Quote:
Meaning, that perhaps if the Insequent are related or similar to the race of the Creator and/or Foul (which explains their power, solitary nature, and temporal knowledge and pertinence) ... perhaps they were allowed into the Arch of Time at a future point. Perhaps by Covenant to repair time and/or maintain the timeline?


I have to admit that I like the idea, but I don't think it holds a lot of water. We know through Stave how the Haruchai first came to the Land. That they went west from their mountainous home and encountered the Vizard who single handedly defeated some 500 Haruchai in moments. Given the timeline of this, it's safe to say that it happened sometime during Loric's reign. And I know, I know, they can move through time so a timeline argument against this idea won't go too far.

But I have other problems with it. The Harrow, for instance. He's after the tools of power for some reason of his own, and he can't move through time. If TC or the Creator allowed these guys into the Land to repair or maintain time, why would one go around trying to steal implements of power? What would he need the SoL for? And while I'm on it, why then would the Theomach replace the guardian of the One Tree himself, and then later allow a Haruchai to take over the job? How is time served by his doleing out of lore to Berek?

I like the idea, but I just don't see it fitting with what we know. Then again, I could be missing some simple pieces...it's been a rough Monday!

And: Kasreyn an Insequent? It's certainly the first I'm hearing this idea as well. If he was one, why did he need the croyel? Seems like an Insequent has means to his/her own power without needing some magical, deformed infant parasite attached to the body.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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And: Kasreyn an Insequent? It's certainly the first I'm hearing this idea as well. If he was one, why did he need the croyel? Seems like an Insequent has means to his/her own power without needing some magical, deformed infant parasite attached to the body.


Agree about the croyel. Kasreyn needed the croyel to have long life, but the Insequent seem to be very long lived beings already. Another issue is his name - "Kemper" was a Bhrathair title, but Kasreyn of the Gyre was his name. An Insequent wouldn't have been so freely giving with his name.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From today's GI:

Quote:
Joey: Just finished FR. Crushingly beautiful. I thought Esmer was my favorite new character but the Theomach... wow. You did an amazing job of threading the needle of Roger and the croyel; just enough so we're shocked without feeling deus ex machina-d at the end.

Question about the Insequent. You've often said that you've prepared the way for these last chronicles with your work in the second chronicles, and indeed every relative new character and race was given introduction in the previous books... with the exception of the Insequent. If they are who I think they are, they've been a part of the saga since the first creation myth... so I guess I'm just wondering if you were purposely keeping quiet about them or if they started pressing against your mind more recently?

It's true that I got the essential ideas for "The Last Chronicles" at the same time that I conceived "The Second Chronicles". And it's true that I did everything possible in "The Second Chronicles" to prepare the way for what I'm doing now. But that doesn't I planned or envisioned every detail of "The Last Chronicles" 25+ years ago. In fact, there are many things in this new story that I didn't foresee way back when (things, incidentally, of which I'm very proud). At least in some ways, I'm a "smarter" writer now than I was then. And my general approach of not inventing more than I need at any given time has served me well by leaving plenty of room for new ideas and understandings. In short, if you assume that EVerything in "The Last Chronicles" has some kind of antecedent in the earlier books, you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment.

(11/12/2007)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^--- That's me! Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That GI QandA more or less confirms what I said earlier in this thread, namely that he didn't conceive the need or existence of the Insequent until after he was finished writing the Second Chronicles. Cool.

Thanks for posting, dlb.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Ah, I miss the heady joy of having at a new Donaldson book!

There's two points to remember about the planning of the Final Chronicles. One was that SRD had them in mind when he wrote the Second Chronicles. But the OTHER one, which gets less press, is that SRD had no clue how to write them. Otherwise he would have.

It seems to me that SRD would have had a very good idea about what the Final Chronicles would accomplish. But he probably had not imagined the details until he sat down and started doing it. I bet the specifics of the Insequent did not get developed until he started to write the Final Chronicles and came up against an obstacle. He had some things he needed to accomplish, but he didn't discover until he worked out the details that he needed a new element in the story to do it. And I emphasize needed - SRD is a big re-user, right?

That's my feeling anyway. He surely would have planted a little tiny reference someplace, otherwise. He probably would have even made use of it to some degree. The man doesn't waste material.

And, yes, I do find the introduction of the Insequent to be rather annoying. Not because I resent the addition of anything new, but because the Insequent are too damn powerful to have gone unnoticed for so long.

When I was reading the part about Berek and the Theomach, I was really mad. I mean, if there are these super powerful guys wandering around helping out the Lords, it begs the question, WHERE WERE THEY?!?! How come they never helped Kevin?!?! How come they never helped Mhoram when Revelstone was about to fall?!?! How could they resist not meddling with the Elohim's plan in the Second Chronicles?!?!

Everything we've read in the first two Chroncles effectively denies that the Insequent exist. Because if they did, they would have done something we'd notice.

What is needed is a rational, uncontrived explanation as to why Linden and Thomas never heard a word about these guys until now. And we don't have one.

So it sort of falls on its face.


Excellent post, but I do think we have a clue about the Insequent in the 2nd Chronicles. It appears that they are the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim. Now we've just got to figure out what that means....

I don't think SRD had thought the Insequent through when he was writing 2nd chronicles. Remember he often claims that he's towards an ending that he has in mind.

In fact, I'll speculate that the role he had in mind for the what became the Insequent was originally intended for rebellious Elohim. And since there is obviously a connection of some type between the Elohim and the Insequent, there is plenty of room to speculate about their connection.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

he does have two more books to explain why they haven't intervened in the land's history more frequently. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work, Joey seppi2112.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
What is needed is a rational, uncontrived explanation as to why Linden and Thomas never heard a word about these guys until now. And we don't have one.

Well, actually we do, and you said it... they didn't exist in SRD's mind. Everyone's trying rationalize how the Insequent could have done (or not done) this or that in the earlier books. Talk about retconning! Wink

SRD is human and is learning and developing as he goes. The GI quote says it all. The reason I really think he brought them into it after ROTE is that a) he talks about how the character of the Mahdoubt surprised him, and b) she's the only one of the 4 whose name doesn't have "meaning." She likely started out as just a character with an enigmatic message for Linden. I still swear I saw that reply in the GI that said she only had a limited role. Now I really suspect he had it removed Wink

callback wrote:
In fact, I'll speculate that the role he had in mind for the what became the Insequent was originally intended for rebellious Elohim.

That makes sense. Then he discovered he could do more by creating a separate race.

none other than the Theomach himself wrote:
SRD created the Insequent for the Final Chronicles more for literary purposes than for Canonical correctness.

Word.

Wayfriend wrote:
WGW might have ended by, on the last page, having twelve dozen Insequent jump out from behind a rock and hogpile on Lord Foul, rendering him impotent with bad singing and tickling.

That's completely hilarious!! And Vain stood poised with a slight half-grin on his face... Vain
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Haven't looked at this thread for a few days...and now I remember why. Think I'm going to go back to THOOLA and give those guys some more hell Big Grin
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible that THE DESPISER is also an insequent?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcblcomish wrote:
Is it possible that THE DESPISER is also an insequent?


Retconning indeed
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcblcomish wrote:
Is it possible that THE DESPISER is also an insequent?


I can't see it being at all possible.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believer wrote:
he does have two more books to explain why they haven't intervened in the land's history more frequently. Smile


Why would they have?
What does it gain them?
What is in it for them?

They have their own country and their own cares and needs.
The Theomach only did it to gain access to the One Tree.
Perhaps the Harrow figured out the Demondim and offered to Kevin to destroy them in exchange for the Staff of Law.
That would be interesting.

I don't know but I'm not worried about them too much.
I'm actually more impressed that SRD hasn't created MORE new characters.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcblcomish wrote:
Is it possible that THE DESPISER is also an insequent?


No. But we know that the Despiser posed as a Lord and was accepted into Kevin's counsels. He may have pulled that trick on the Insequent as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now suspect that SRD may have long had a more complex story in mind for the question of the One Tree, its Guardian, how Berek got a limb off the Tree, and the Worm of the World's End-- that even in WGW he knew that Findail was lying about that. If so, this implies had he had a character like the Theomach in mind since the Guardian plays a key role in that story. Also, Linden's visit to the past plays too large role in FR not to have been envisioned early on. So I think the Theomach at least have been waiting in the wings for a long time. Maybe the rest of the Insequent were a late invention, but the Theomach (whom I suspect we will meet again) must have been envisioned quite far back.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Foul can't be an Insequent, but that beggar . . . Smile

Wayfriend's post quoted above pretty much sums it up. And it goes along with complaints I've written elsewhere: contrived ignorance necessary for all this to work. In order for the presence of the Insequent to be plausible, Donaldson is going to have to invent yet another reason for characters to have been in the dark, to never have heard of them.

The plausibility of Linden and Covenant never hearing about these characters when they are so crucial for so many seminal events of the past (Berek's tutelage, creation of the original Staff, the Guardian of the One Tree, the reason for the Haruchai taking the Vow, the Seven Words of Power, and probably more)--it just strains credulity.

Why couldn't Donaldson simply bring in a bunch of Unfettered Ones to fill the role of the Insequent in the LC? With the Unfettered Ones, Donaldson already built within his mythology a class of secretive, seclusive, solitary people who sought out unknown Lore. That's the Insequent in a nutshell! He didn't need to invent another class of such beings.

And another thing: if a class of people already existed prior to the Unfettered Ones, prior to the Old Lords, then why did the Land need Lords? They already had them in the form of the Insequent!

So this is perhaps the worst thing about the Insequent: they render the entire history of the Lords unnecessary. The cool thing about Berek was the he was the first one to awaken to Earthpower, to get it to respond directly to humans. This was supposed to be the beginning of mankind having this relationship with the Land, and having the power to defend it. That's what made Berek's experience on Mount Thunder so cool: the fact that mankind's plight had reach a point where the earth itself was responding, and giving them power.

But now we realize that the Insequent already had much more power, and that they were there with Berek, teaching him. Thus, Berek and the Lords are now redundant to the Insequent, and no longer as special.

I really hate the Insequent, the more I think about it.
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