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The Runes, the Staff, and Wildwood's Question
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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

I found the quote you're referring to. SRD explains that the Land is the "higher" realm and the "real" world is the "lower" realm, such that a person from the "real" world can travel to the "higher" realm but a denizen of the Land cannot travel to the "lower" world.

Yes, that's one of the quotes related to this issue. It sounds like that's also the quote I use to back up my idea that sandgorgons will never run amok through Haven Farm.


Quote:
Then why did he have TC tell Linden that the Land is a shared dream? Because he forgot about having written that line over 20 years ago?
Actually, when Linden and Covenant went to the Land in TWL, Covenant said that the "shared dream" interpretation was one possible interpretation--the internal one. He also said there's another interpretation--the external one. But he said that ultimately, the interpretation doesn't matter. It's how one reacts to the Land that matters, not whether or not it's real. And that was where he left that issue behind.


Ok, so SRD used something like the external explanation, and we're back to square one because I believe TC. So here's an explanation that goes along with Covenant's: feeling is real, whether you dreamt it or not. Suffering is real in dreams or in reality. Love is still as poignant in any realm of experience. Feelings are a subjective, personal reality. How you react to experience depends on whether you want to create a world of pain and ugliness or love and beauty.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Seareach wrote:
Hit Head I'm now officially refusing to read your posts, Wayfriend

Crying or Very sad


yeah, but you didn't quote all of what I said. Smile I just don't like to think about such things and, well, who knows if you'll end up right or wrong. But every time I read your posts I think "bloody hell, I never thought of that...but gosh that sounds so plausible" Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my jeezus, this thread is cool!. Cool There's so much to respond to... I've taken some bits and pieces from along the way... Here goes...

Early on in the thread the issue of entropy and the second law of thermodynamics was brought up in connection with the blurring of boundaries between the worlds, that law was breaking down.

Aleksandr wrote
Quote:
Re: ...The 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The 2nd Law applies only to closed systems. Whether our Universe as a whole is closed or open is very much an unanswered question.


True, this law only applies to closed systems. Is the Land a closed system? SRD says from the GI:

Quote:
I think we've been over this. First, fantasy is inherently a-rational. It must abide by its own internal logic; but it doesn't have to play by the same rules as our "normal" reality. Second, "The Chronicles" are all about paradox. And third (a point which makes perfect sense to me), the rules for "reaching out" from inside a closed system in order to connect to another closed system are fundamentally and inevitably different than the rules for "reaching into" a closed system from an unlimited, effectively infinite system in order to change the closed system. The two actions cannot be compared to each other. The first ("reaching out") is comparable to my attempt to answer your question. The second ("reaching into") might be comparable to my deciding that in "Fatal Revenant" the story would be more exciting if Revelstone could fly, or if Linden were male, or if Lord Foul were vulnerable to kryptonite. By "reaching out," I may very well affect your thinking, but I can't *impose* anything on you without your underlying consent. (Joan, like the commune she joined, was willing, nay, eager to be manipulated.) By "reaching into" my story in order to alter its internal logic and integrity, I can only destroy it.


Here, he seems to be implying that our system is infinite and unlimited, but I doubt he means that exactly. It was probably just a way to answer this person's question. He also says in the GI:

Quote:
My own conceptualization of the Arch of Time does not contain *anything* that is predetermined. Rather, as I tried to explain throughout "Runes," I see the Arch as the (admittedly linear) system of rules--e.g. cause and effect, sequence, linearity itself--which makes it possible for life (as I understand it) to exist; which makes it possible for human beings to think, feel, choose, and experience consequences. In *my* conceptualization, when the Creator created the Arch, he/she/it did not create a closed system in which everything has already been determined, but rather an open-ended *process* both enabled and constrained by a variety of *rules*, a process in which anything can happen as long as it doesn't break the rules (because breaking the rules destroys the process); and even breaking the rules can happen--as long as the being breaking the rules doesn't mind destroying the process. Hence free will. Hence the importance of making choices. Hence the significance of, say, Covenant's and Linden's efforts to determine the meaning of their own lives.


So, he's more explicit here. The Land is an open system built on a set of rules to guide its growth and development. But the process is destroyed when the rules are broken.

The Laws of Death and Life have been broken. Thus, the system is in grave danger. It might pass utterly from existence. But then CW gives Linden that boon, those runes which enable her to wield antithetical powers to shape the reality of her choice.

DukkaWaynhim wrote:
Quote:
No matter whether the world of the Land "ends" or not at first, I feel that is going to be remade - in a way that answers CW's question, thus repaying the boon of his gift of Runes.


I think something has already been "remade" by what Linden did. This has been discussed at length elsewhere, so I won't go into its details. Except to say that Linden seems to have remade or made a new rule, Law, by tinkering with already broken or damaged ones. Must the Earth be remade by destroying it? Would this satisfy CW's question? I somehow doubt it, feel that I'm sort of onto something, on a threshold of 'getting it', but can hear lurch echoing in my mind to relax and let the paradox of it just exist, and let the answer "Find me".

There's more I want to say, and will, but this post has taxed me. Nice work everyone! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Donnelson writes , he gives us all the answers we need. But he directs us in a different direction and it makes the answers unnoticiable.

What part does Salva Gildenbourne plays? From the map in the book, that is one HUGE forest. It look like it the size or larger than the combined size of the lost three.(Garroting Deep,Grimmerdbore and Mortrimoss) Plus Gallows Howe is still listed.

Maybe CW's answer lays in this new forest.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may have something there, UrDead. CW's question did surround around the trees as the vulnerable treasures of the Earth. Makes me wonder...

What about the Giant Woods? Did that forest ever have a forestal? I can't recall who ever travelled through there, though I know it was someone in one of the books. Memory too cloudy on that one.

What is it about trees and forests? Question
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gallow's Howe is still listed I believe so that when Linden goes back in time to GH we know where she is in relation to Rivenrock, et al.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you combine the two ideas ... it creates some interesting possibilities.

That somehow the Land-iverse ends ... but something escapes into our world ... maybe as part of someone ... who we thought had died ...[/quote]

welll....Joan has received the ultimate shock treatment...so her being is kinda vacant rite now...Perhaps that is the healing of Joan then,,all of these characters in balance...and jeremiah too..a place for Liand?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone think that the staff turning black and the fact that TC's venom in the 2nd Chrons was black have anything to do with each other? Of perhaps not connected, but thematically inter-related. SRD does not use color arbitrarily and is very specific about it.

I think we can take some clues about the ultimate disposition of the staff and its power from what happened to TC's venom at the end of WGW.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the first thought I had about the blackness was related to Vain, since he obviously was ebony and is part of the Staff. But I didn't get any further in my thinking than that. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Borillar wrote:
Actually, the first thought I had about the blackness was related to Vain, since he obviously was ebony and is part of the Staff. But I didn't get any further in my thinking than that. Smile

The black isn't black to signify other black things.

The significance of the blackness is in how it was acquired.

Which means it is either about power, or about rage.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:


Which means it is either about power, or about rage.


Or. more likely considering Linden's state of mind in Earthroot when the staff became black, both.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The black isn't black to signify other black things.


That's said with much definitiveness, but it's not like any of us *know* at this point exactly what significance it has. We all have our theories, but it's not like anyone can authoritatively reject a theory another has. Well, SRD can, but not the rest of us. Smile

Actually, I was reminded of Vain not only because of the blackness, but also because Vain is described at the end of WGW as "untrammeled violence", or something along those lines. And the staff turns black when Linden engages in an act of extreme violence, i.e., seeking to exterminate Roger. Actually, the really wanton act of violence comes later after the staff is already black, which is the attack on the Harrow after he has foresworn any attempt to compel her. In my opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Salva Gildenbourne was being described - it was mentioned that it wsa a mess, that when Sunder & Hollian created it they did a bit of a ramshackle job because they didn't understand how a forest should be... After I read that I got the impression that Linden should go through it and 'correct' it with the New staff of Law, completed by a forestal...

That's what I wanted her to do anyway.. And I really do like the idea of her becoming a new forestal that was discussed earlier..

But I have some random questions..
If TC WAS preserving the Arch of Time, and has now been raised from the dead, he cannot do that anymore can he? Is he going to have to die again?

It was never explained how Roger knew so much about the Land's history.. He must have spent some time there just learning (under the guidance of Foul, presumably).. How he knows that Staffs of Law can build Forbiddings.. Did that confuse anyone else?

I don't think the Staff of Law was meant to ressurrect anybody either.. But I loved it how the Ranyhyn were warning her not to do it...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would not surprise me at all to see another Forestall created in the next two books.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
It would not surprise me at all to see another Forestall created in the next two books.

I see one character, at least, who seems to be destined for that role, or perhaps something like it but better.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we probably agree on that character as well.

But I also would give nearly even odds on Linden becoming one (or something like one) as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
Cail wrote:
It would not surprise me at all to see another Forestall created in the next two books.

I see one character, at least, who seems to be destined for that role, or perhaps something like it but better.

Cail wrote:
I think we probably agree on that character as well.


Hey, you guys don't have to beat around the bush. I see where you're heading. . . yep, Pahni. By the Creator, we'll get that slut's hand off Liand's shoulder in the end.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the episode in Salva Gildenbourne when Anele states that the knowledge of how the earth can preserve itself lies hidden in the deepest roots of the mountains? I sort of interpreted that as a hint about forestals, or something similar.

And heres a new (?) theory:

Caerroil Wildwood engraved the staff with the runes of life and death not for Linden to bring Covenant back from the dead, but for her to be able to heal the broken laws, when the time was due Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atrium wrote:
Caerroil Wildwood engraved the staff with the runes of life and death not for Linden to bring Covenant back from the dead, but for her to be able to heal the broken laws, when the time was due Wink
Interesting, but would a Forestal have that power?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Marthiir becoming the Forestal...wouldn't be the first time a guy with no eyes became one....

I think that the powers of a Forestal at his/her height can be nearly unchecked, but they rarely use them 'cept in time of DIRE need...healing the laws could qualify...
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