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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis Smith wrote:
Near the end of FR Infelice says that Linden's Dead are 'commanded' bot not speak that she must make her decision unaided or influenced by their consul. Who is responsible for this?

Linden assumes its Covenant but its already clear by that point that she is mis-reading certain things

In reply, SRD wrote:
I don’t want to get too specific about this. However, you might want to consider the possibility that Linden’s Dead are commanded, not by an individual, but rather by their comprehension of what’s at stake. I know, I know: the word “commanded” usually implies a “commander”. <rueful smile> In that respect, Berek seems as good a candidate as Covenant (whose appearance on the scene is certainly reluctant). But (you should pardon the expression) there may be more to this being Dead business than meets the eye.
(03/23/2008)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Moore asked:
Quote:
Steve,

I almost hate to bother you with such a trifle, but this is really bothering me at the moment. I swear to The Maker that I read this in The Illearth War recently upon a re-read, but for the life of me I can't find where I think I read it.

Does the gem of the krill originate from a piece of the One Stone? I'm almost certain mention was made of a One Stone (I remember being shocked to read it due to certain events from Fatal Revenant), but I can't find it. Maybe this reference was in connection to the orcrest that was given to Covenant in that same book? But it seems that the orcrest is the rock equivalent of the lomillialor, a descendant of the One Tree, not a piece of the original like the Staff of Law.

Can you confirm or deny this for me?

Hail,
Mr. Moore




SRD replied:
Quote:
Trees grow, mutate, have descendants. Rocks melt, fuse, get torn apart and recombined. I would hate to limit my narrative options by saying, "Yes, the gem of the krill is a piece of the One Stone [Rock, whatever: One of Something]." But surely it's fair to say that the krill's gem--and orcrest--are descended in some sense from the archetypal concept of *stone*. Like lomillialor, they express or exemplify ideas and powers larger than themselves.

(03/12/2008)



So, I got my question answered, but like many or most questions regarding specific things like this, the answer is not all that specific. And I obviously found the reference as my thread titled "The One Rock" elucidates.

I'm looking to RAFO more about this as the story wends to conclusion. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and we also have the answer to who "compelled" the Dead.
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the GI, posted on 14th May:

Quote:
As far as I know, the Insequent played no part in the first six "Covenant" books.



Erm, Ak-Haru?
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amanibhavam wrote:
From the GI, posted on 14th May:

Quote:
As far as I know, the Insequent played no part in the first six "Covenant" books.



Erm, Ak-Haru?

Technically not an Insequent at that time.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
amanibhavam wrote:
From the GI, posted on 14th May:

Quote:
As far as I know, the Insequent played no part in the first six "Covenant" books.



Erm, Ak-Haru?

Technically not an Insequent at that time.


Again from the GI:
Quote:

DJBMD: I notice a question above asked about the appearance of any Insequent in the first 2 COTC series and your answer was no, they hadn't appeared. But wasn't Kenaustin Ardenol ak-haru an Insequent? The Theomach?


Touche. I got that one wrong.

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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Ak-Haru,

Isn't it cuttin it fine...to determine he was not of the Insequent at that time...? But it is just as likely I missed the reasoning on it...???

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SRD posted a long and interesting question from Gary today.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
Gary: Long-time reader, first-time writer, to paraphrase what they say on talk radio.

I was not at all surprised that Linden would bring Covenant back. As you've pointed out in the GI, you left clues a mile away, (or more like, the distance from Revelstone to Andelain, or even, from Garroting Deep 10,000 years in the past). You make it sound, though, at the end of FR, like Linden just did an Elena, that her action would have dire consequences like Elena's did, that the Ranyhyn tried to warn her as they did her. (I'm getting to a question here, believe me, I'm just setting it up.)

But Linden is not Elena. Elena - well I think enough was said already in the first series, in the GI, and in commentary linked to from your website about how she was born and what Covenant's psyche was like at the time. I think Elena doesn't face her own despair while alive, but runs from it, and only in so doing could she become convinced that despair could give a dead man strength to succeed where he had failed in his life. Linden, OTOH, is a woman who OVERCAME POSSESSION BY A &^%$ING RAVER!! This is not a woman who is secretly ruled by despair - she's faced her demons, faced her despair and her inner Despiser, and overcome them. Her life story during the 10 years back in her "own" world testifies to this.

Linden doesn't bring Covenant back out of despair, but out of love and the exigencies of need. Love for her son is explicit in the text, but, and here's my first question, isn't it also the need for Covenant's physical presence with her? For his companionship, his love? If she has self-doubt, she has good reason for it. Not just that she was fooled by Roger and the Croyel, but also because of what happened to her heart, and because what she will have to face is outside any scale of her previous experience. If she can't gain some measure of healing for her heart, she COULD come a desecrator of the entire world. I think it's to AVOID this that she brings back Covenant. She knows she's going to have to wield both wild magic and the Staff to have the chance to win her son back and defeat LF. She's going to have to do something powerful enough to rouse the Worm no matter which way she turns. It might as well be something that gives her the best chance of actually winning. Because, really, what's her alternative? Sit around in Revelstone, while her son continues to be tortured and used, while caesures continue to tear at the fabric of time and skurj consume the very Land, while Sandgorgons motivated by the malice of rent samadhi seek to establish cruel dominion, while Roger, Kastenessen, the Harrow, Esmer, and who knows who there creating untold havoc?

Now to my second question - or set of questions, really. Does Elena, during the 3500 years or so of wandering in Andelaine following the last banishment of LF, finally do some serious introspection and confront her own pain? Is that even possible for one who is Dead? When Covenant meets Elena during TWL, and again in WGW, she appears just as she did in her life, an image in humanity of the loveliness of the Land, and talks to Covenant as one who is sane, but then Linden challenges her, and she can make no response. Does that challenge start some long delayed process of facing up? Even when Covenant released her from LF's service, she seemed to snap back to herself without experiencing the horror of what she'd done ("Strike a blow for me, beloved.") Is she now in the same place that Kevin is in in WGW, when he sees in Covenant a desecrator such as he was? Does she now see herself in Linden? Is she projecting, in other words?

If I understand this right, the dire warnings against Linden's actions have to be taken in context of who's giving them and their own behaviors. There are the Haruchai, specifically the Humbled, who can't see beyond their own set of rules. There's Elena, who can't say anything, but whose face says it for her, who's seeing herself in Linden. There's Esmer, who's motivations are always in question, it being hard to tell who he's
serving at any time with any action. There's Infelice, who really seems to have a lot to lose personally, who snaps, "every Elohim will be devoured." You didn't have her say, "The world will end," or "The Arch of Time will be broken," I note. This is not exactly an oracular crew here. I'd put more faith in the Ranyhyn and the Mahdoubt, who see the potential for apocalypse in Linden and yet do everything they can to help her anyway, every step of the way, in Hollian, who offers hope even when doom falls. Also, there's the late Mhoram's warning, "It boots nothing to avoid his snares, for they are beset with other snares." There's a pattern here isn't there? LF's enemies have to travel the path he prepares for them until they gain enough knowledge, understanding, and personal power to turn that path to their own purposes rather than his.

OK, that was VERY longwinded, so I'll just end by saying that, based on precedent, I have faith that you'll bring this series to a most satisfying conclusion (provided that you're given the time and opportunity to do so), and I'm greatly looking forward to AATE's release. Just the names of those books are letting me know that this ride is going to get weirder and scarier than anything we've seen yet.

Gary
    I'm posting your message pretty much intact for the same reason that I've procrastinated answering. You've put a lot of thought into your comments, you have some valuable insights--and I have no earthly idea how to respond. The--I don't know what to call it--mental paralysis?--that comes over me when I read your message is entirely about *me*, I hasten to say, not about what you've contributed. "I become paralysed" is not at all the same thing as "You paralyse me." Rather my paralysis, I think, is a reflection of where I am in the story, and where I am in my life. As Dr Who might say, "You mustn't take any credit." <grin>

    So instead of actually answering you, I'll cobble together a few random remarks....

    1) Most of us are never actually *done* "facing our demons". Just because we won one round--or five rounds--don't mean we'll win them all. 2) There are different kinds of demons. We all have some that we can face down a whole lot more easily than others. 3) Every strength is also a weakness, just as every weakness is also a strength. 4) Of *course* Linden brings Covenant back "out of love and the exigencies of need"--as well as for quite a variety of other reasons.

    As for Elena among the Dead.... Boy, I wish I had something useful to say. Clearly, my vision of "the Dead" in this story involves some kind of ability to remain active (otherwise they wouldn't have anything to offer Covenant in TWL). But I still I see them in much the same way that I see the Land itself: as a reflection of the person who invokes them. Covenant meets a "different" Elena in TWL than Linden meets in FR because he's a different person with (and this is crucial) a different knowledge of Elena. Linden can't evoke the Elena of TWL because she has no real knowledge of that woman: Linden's knowledge of Elena is based pretty much exclusively on stories of Desecration. Hence the discrepancy between the manifestations.

    Other aspects of all this I simply can't talk about until I have the whole story finished.

    (06/06/2008)

This touches quite a bit on the general Linden issues we've been discussing a whole lot. While Donaldson unsurprisingly didn't reveal too much, he does state that we can't presume that Linden has no demons to face. However, it is intriguing that he mentions the strength/weakness dichotomy here. Does he mean that Linden's having demons yet to face is a strength, or that having faced so many demons is a weakness?

Thanks, Stephen R Donaldson. The R must stand for Really Ambiguous.

The insight into Elena is interesting, too. Particularly that the kind of ghost you meet depends on what you bring into the meeting of them. Although it is unclear if he means this as some sort of aspect of the way the Land works, or if he means something about how he chooses what happens in the story.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The insight into Elena is interesting, too. Particularly that the kind of ghost you meet depends on what you bring into the meeting of them. Although it is unclear if he means this as some sort of aspect of the way the Land works, or if he means something about how he chooses what happens in the story.


Isn't this true even in real life? You and I both know someone. But based on the circumstances under which we know them, our interaction with them could be completely different. We could both be good friends with them and still see different aspects of their personality. This could also be true of the Dead. What you get from them entirely depends on how you know them (or don't) and how they know you (or don't).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
SRD posted a long and interesting question from Gary today.




As for Elena among the Dead.... Boy, I wish I had something useful to say. Clearly, my vision of "the Dead" in this story involves some kind of ability to remain active (otherwise they wouldn't have anything to offer Covenant in TWL). But I still I see them in much the same way that I see the Land itself: as a reflection of the person who invokes them. Covenant meets a "different" Elena in TWL than Linden meets in FR because he's a different person with (and this is crucial) a different knowledge of Elena. Linden can't evoke the Elena of TWL because she has no real knowledge of that woman: Linden's knowledge of Elena is based pretty much exclusively on stories of Desecration. Hence the discrepancy between the manifestations.


Ok. Steve said - "and this is crucial". My question is:

Does Linden resurrect the "real" Covenant or a "glamoured" version based on remembered love?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik23 goes for the prize! Does he get it?
Quote:
Nathan Eddy: Mr. Donaldson,

Earlier in the GI, you said:

“Knowing the essential story of ‘The Last Chronicles’ before I ever started working on ‘The Second Chronicles,’ I took great pains to plant the necessary seeds throughout those earlier books.”
(11/09/2004)

At the halfway point in our journey through The Last Chronicles, are there any of those seeds you can specify for us without giving away too much for the next two books? I’m sure that the end of The One Tree contains quite a few, for both the Haruchai and for the Theomach. Would you mind pointing out a few more that have already paid off, in your eyes? Some that have already produced the fruit which you intended? Or do these seeds still have some potential growth left that you’d rather not give away?

Thanks!
Nathan R. Eddy (Malik23)
    Hmm. I'm willing to say this much: the breaking of the Law of Life, and the resurrection of Hollian, were absolutely critical to both "The Second Chronicles" and "The Last Chronicles". And the fact that Linden's Staff is not informed by the lore of the Old Lords is no accident.

    (09/10/2008)

Not sure if any of this is new info, but it's certainly confirmation. Good question, Malik.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Malik has a real name! That is indeed a good question.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The breaking of the Law of Life - well, we know about that seed. Obviously, it sets the stage for ceasures, and Covenant's full resurrection in the final Chronicles. And perhaps Caer Caveral even planned for that - discussion.

The resurrection of Hollian - this refers to Anele, I believe. Unless Hollian is going to make a comback.

Linden's Staff is not informed by the lore of the Old Lords - this has come up in the GI before, and it's been discussed here, too. But I think what is new here is that, whereas we may have believe that this was something Donaldson thought of later, in fact he planned for it twenty years ago. However, the true significance of this is still lost on me. I don't see what the lack of lore in the Staff prevents that is significant.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Linden's Staff is not informed by the lore of the Old Lords - this has come up in the GI before, and it's been discussed here, too. But I think what is new here is that, whereas we may have believe that this was something Donaldson thought of later, in fact he planned for it twenty years ago. However, the true significance of this is still lost on me. I don't see what the lack of lore in the Staff prevents that is significant.


I'm not so sure it is prevention, as much as enablement. The Staff is not circumscribed by that lore. But consider what has gone into it:

The Structural Lore of the ur-Viles.
The Incarnate Earthpower of the Elohim.
The Passion of Linden Avery, channeled thorugh
The Wild Magic of Covenant's white gold ring.
The Vitality of the Earthblood.
The Wisdom of C. Wildwood.

I wonder, though, if this is a hint that the heels of the staff were not of the Old Lords? Certainly they play a role, and if the Old Lords' lore does not, where did they come from?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Yes, and we also have the answer to who "compelled" the Dead.


Who?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fits wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
Yes, and we also have the answer to who "compelled" the Dead.

Who?

Somewhere in the forum someone once asked who it was who commanded the dead to be silent at the end of FR. Referring to this passage.

In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
Stave frowned. "Be still, Chosen," he said in a constrained hush. "The Dead have no words for your ears. They are forbidden to address you. In this place, your deeds must be your own, unpersuaded for good or ill by the counsel and knowledge of those who have perished. So it has been commanded, and the Dead obey."

Donaldson's answer, in Relayer's post above, seemed to settle the question, and indicated that they were not forbidden by a person per se, but bound by circumstances and perhaps also by Law.
Stephen R Donaldson, in the Gradual Interview wrote:
I don’t want to get too specific about this. However, you might want to consider the possibility that Linden’s Dead are commanded, not by an individual, but rather by their comprehension of what’s at stake.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donaldson's answer, in Relayer's post above, seemed to settle the question, and indicated that they were not forbidden by a person per se, but bound by circumstances and perhaps also by Law.
Stephen R Donaldson, in the Gradual Interview wrote:
I don’t want to get too specific about this. However, you might want to consider the possibility that Linden’s Dead are commanded, not by an individual, but rather by their comprehension of what’s at stake.


Thanks for the reply! So it's back to this "freedom of choice or action" concept: freedom to save or damn, or a bit of both.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great Q&A:

Quote:
Andrew Roy: Mr. Donaldson:
It's always a pleasure re-reading your novels. I've recently re-read ROTE and am now re-reading FR.

I've been thinking of why Jeremiah was translated into the Land, and I know that it's part of Foul's mechanations to inspire Joan to use enough power to rouse the Worm. My questions pertain directly to Jeremiah and the Jeremiah / Croyel.

First, I would like to know the degree of truth in the conversations that the Jeremiah / Croyel has. It seems that much of what it said is half truths or better and the eye-tic seems to be a pretty good indicator of how far the Croyel has to push Jeremiah from his natural course. Can you let me know if I'm near the mark on that one?

Second, and kind of dependent on the first, the race track construct was what had allowed Jeremiah to get to the Land in the first place (if we believe the Jeremiah / Croyel), and he certainly seems to know his way around and know a few people (like the Theomach) and professes knowledge of Ravers and such. Of course in the real world, there's the whole maiming at the bonfire in WL, and then the Mount Thunder and Revelstone constructs. The constructs themselves though, they seem to be a new unique power and Jeremiah's own - the Croyel just seems to take advantage of this ability, is that correct?

Third, how was it known how strong the bond between Linden and Jeremiah is? Sure, if I'm on the mark on the first 2, Jeremiah is no stranger to the Land, and he must have spilled the beans so that Foul could use this in his mechanations, but how credible could this teenage boy be in such matters, after all he's been through?

Lastly, and this question is really more about the Croyel, when I first remember one of their kind, the Kemper's son *I realize that of the Kemper's son, no one speaks, but I'm hoping you'll make the exception* <grin> it seemed that the Kemper and Croyel were working together toward a common end, then again with the Arguleh, same deal. I did not credit them with a Raver's power of possession. This makes me fear that Jeremiah is not 'restored' and that the Croyel is his puppet master and takes advantage of his innate power for constructs. Am I near the mark on this one?

Thanks for all of this in advance!

Spoilers, spoilers: all these spoilers. What makes you think that I can *afford* to answer such questions at this point in the story?

But before I begin to waffle on or even ignore specific points: I'm sure you must have meant Linden rather than Joan at the beginning of your message. Joan is already under Lord Foul's control--and in no condition to achieve his ends directly.

Now.

First, I think it's safe to assume that the croyel can scavenge pretty much anything it needs from Jeremiah's mind. The croyel may speak in half-truths, but it has access to full-truths (at least where Jeremiah is concerned). I also think it's safe to assume that, in spite of his dissociation, Jeremiah's mind *records* whatever he sees/hears/experiences, whether or not he understands it.

Second, other croyel in the story have not revealed the kinds of powers that the croyel possessing Jeremiah displays. Therefore it must be safe to conclude that the source of those powers lies within Jeremiah. Unless, of course, Roger and the croyel are exerting power in concert, in which case the whole equation changes.

Third, tsk, tsk. How does Lord Foul ever know ANYthing about people like Covenant, Joan, and Linden? These are mysteries--and better left so.

Lastly, why do you suppose Linden is so obsessed with whether or not Jeremiah has indeed been "claimed" by the Despiser? Where do his hidden loyalties actually lie? Is he the croyel's victim or the croyel's partner? This is crucial.

(10/11/2008)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"in spite of his dissociation, Jeremiah's mind *records* whatever he sees/hears/experiences,"

how very reminiscent of TC's stasis imposed on him by the Elohim... maybe it IS the same thing again to protect J from the effects of Foul's bonfire or whatever came thereafter?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent observation, Amanibhavam!
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