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The Power That Preserves, Chapter 11: Ritual of Desecration
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furls Fire wrote:
Anyway, if I've learned one thing during this little forray into Desecreation it's this: NEVER argue with a Bloodgaurd. Smile
Hey, I don't see your resolve weakening any either! Smile

Furls Fire wrote:
huggles Fist! This has been GREAT!!
?? I'm getting the brushoff??? LOL Actually, I'll beat a dead horse for weeks and weeks. Not so much out of stubbornness, though that plays its part. Smile But I just enjoy this stuff so much that I can't stop myself. So it's a good thing when the other person does. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thoughts, danlo. Foul's sphere of influence is an interesting idea.
Quote:
"Despite was the bane of men. It came with them into the Land from the cold anguish of the north, and from the hungry kingdom of the south."
I wonder if Foul still operates in those areas also. Or everywhere that there are men. Or if he found the Land so enticing that he doesn't bother with anywhere else any more.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a couple of points.

This chapter contains one of my favorite moments in the Chronicles -- When Mhoram proves himself to be the true born High Lord of the Land by pulling the sword from the stone! Very Happy Wink

Also, about Kevin -- Spoiler:
I think it is rather telling in WGW that TC's dead state that Kevin is still lacking in death the vision he lacked in life. Obviously to them, at least, his solution was not a particularly good one...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, not giving you the brushoff...we can argue this til doomsday if you wish. Bring it on! Smile

But I must warn you, I stand by my perceptions, they may be mine alone, but they are MINE. So, my resolve will never waver. (Am I starting to sound like Covenant?)

"Ah, you are stubborn yet."
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good point about Kevin. I've always loved that quote too. To be precise:Spoiler:
"The vision which he lacked in life is not supplied in death."

As though all that you lack in life will suddenly be made clear when you die, and you'll say, "Oh! NOW I get it!"
(Interesting that trying to use the quote function inside the spoiler made the spoiler powerless.)

Well, Fire, if you want. Smile Actually, I can't argue against your theory for the moment, until I understand it better. I'm getting closer, but I still don't know precisely what you have in mind. Since neither Mhoram nor Kevin used the power of the RoD in a non-violent, non-aggressive way, (Though, again, Mhoram didn't use it to its fullest extent, as Kevin did, since he didn't need its full power to defeat his foe.), how are you suggesting it could have been used? Do you have specific ideas in mind?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh geez, what did I get myself into? Okay...well, let me think on it. I don't want to talk in circles, I know what my theory is, but I"m having a hard time explaining it.

Quote:
With a look like joy gleaming in his eyes, he swept aside all his self restraints and turned to his secret understanding of desecration. That secret contained might--might which the Lords had failed to discover because of their Oath of Peace--might which could be used to preserve as well as destroy. Despair was not the only unlocking emotion. Mhoram freed his own passion and stood against the devastation of the Close.


This is the basis of my theory. "Might which could be used to preserve as well as destroy"...."Despair was not the only unlocking emotion."

Couldn't Kevin find a different way to use it? Couldn't he have found a way to defeat Foul with out destroying the Land? If the power was there to preserve as well as destroy...I believe he could have if he hadn't fallen into despair.

I think i'm going in circles again...not sure I can explain it any better. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, Kevin invites Foul to the RoD then turns the table on him, and instead they do the DoJ (Dance of Joy)? Now that'd be an interesting twist.

For me, however, that's the crux of it. Kevin invited Foul to participate, and you know if Foul has a hand in anything, it's screwed up. Even if Kevin had good intentions, by inviting despair and despite into the process he has betrayed those intentions. Kevin saw power in despair and embraced it. Had he rejected it instead, I think he would've had a real shot at defeating Foul. For me, it's all about the symbolism.

In a Land where hero worship and forgiveness are such a major part of the people, I don't think it's a mistake that he's called Landwaster.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, nobody ever seemed particularly angry with Kevin.
Quote:
"And Kevin, whom we name Landwaster more in pity than in condemnation of his despair..."

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caer Sylvanus wrote:
Hmm, Kevin invites Foul to the RoD then turns the table on him, and instead they do the DoJ (Dance of Joy)? Now that'd be an interesting twist.


LOL...that isn't what I meant...

*sighs forlornly* Ah well, guess I better give up the ghost, aye?

I'll leave it with this quote from Atarian in LFB:

Quote:
"There is Kevin's Watch. There stood Kevin Landwaster, High Lord and weilder of the Staff, direct descendant of Berek Halfhand, in the last battle against the Gray Slayer. It is said that there he knew defeat, and mad grief. In the blackness which whelmed his heart he--the most powerful champion in all the ages of the Land--even he, High Lord Kevin, sworn Earthfriend, brought down the Desecration, the end of all things in the Land for many generations. It is not a good omen that you have been there."


Mad grief...I believe he made the decision in despair. Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it difficult to figure out when to believe what various characters say. When samadhi touched him, Mhoram learned that they had been wrong about the Colossus' purpose all along. And how did anyone know that Kevin died hearing Foul's laughter? Foul told Covenant in the beginning of LFB, but it seemed to be common knowledge throughout the Land. Kevin didn't tell anyone that he was planning the RoD, because he knew they'd try to stop him. So then how did anyone know that he was mad with grief or in despair?

Anyway, about the debate, I don't think that any defensive position could prevent an immortal, indestructable evil, like Foul and the ravers, forever. That kind of evil force will never stop trying. It will always find a way through your armor. I think the only way to be safe from it is to damage it as much as possible. Spoiler:
I think that's why Mhoram didn't just set up extremely strong barriers, or anything else. He took the raver down.
And I think Kevin learned, after trying SO much else, that he had to hit Foul with the most powerful thing possible. (2nd most powerful, since he didn't use the 7th Ward. But he didn't want to damn the Land with unforseeable consequences, only the horrible ones that he knew it could survive and recover from.) So the RoD was he only answer.

Actually, I can see it just as easy your way. I can make sense of it both ways. But I'd rather give Kevin the benefit of the doubt, because I don't like the idea of someone of his power and knowledge becoming such an idiot. His knowledge of Earthpower - its nature, uses, possibilities - far surpassed Mhoram's, and he was prophetic also, and I don't like to think that, after trying so many different things, he was unable to figure out a solution that was so unbearably obvious - You can use the power of the Ritual for things other than the Ritual. Too easy. If it was suggested to him, I think he would have given a sarcastic, "NOOOOOOOOOOO! Really???" It was a revelation to Mhoram, because they were all so conditioned about the Ritual and despair. But I like to think that Kevin understood that, and tried those other uses, but they were unable to stop Foul. Block him briefly, I'm sure. To "what if", Kevin may even have been able to put up a barrier around Revelstone that Foul would NEVER have been able to breach. But then maybe the rest of the Land would be at Foul's mercy, while Kevin watched the horror from safety. Who knows?
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Last edited by Fist and Faith on Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um Fist?

Spoiler:
Aren't we getting a little ahead of ourselves?: "I think that's why Mhoram didn't just set up extremely strong barriers, or anything else. He took the raver down." While I appreciate the passion you bring to your debates, I could have sworn that we are not up to Lord Mhroram's Victory, yet... Confused
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops! *sigh* Embarassed Sorry. It's fixed.

And let me explain a little more when I said about it being a revelation to Mhoram. The people of the Land were terrified of despair and desecration. They all talk about the Oath all the time. It's probably the biggest aspect of their culture. Spoiler:
The thought that the power could be used for good never occurred to them. That's why it was a revelation to Mhoram. It took a bit of brilliance for someone of that mindset to see it, and something more than brilliance to accept it.

But Kevin was not from that era. He hadn't been brought up to be terrified of these powers, and, I'd bet, dabbled in things that Mhoram never would have tried. That's why I think he knew about, and tried using, the paradox/crux of it. But it wasn't enough.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I agree with! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, with the Last Chrons galloping around thru time, we may just get all our answers into Kevin's actions. Who knows, we may even have a front row seat to the Desecration.

What a sad thought Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be. I assume it will go your way. SRD seems to have that in mind. It's in the glossary and everything, right? But I'm sticking with my story until I see otherwise. Very Happy Elena said there were some who believed as I do. She said they were "few, but eloquent." Or something like that. Apparently I'm not eloquent enough to convince you folks!! Laughing

But I wouldn't mind seeing the Ritual. It's always good to see the very depths of things. In a sick, twisted kind of way. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL!! Of course it will go my way. I'm right More Razz

umm...I think. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from being wrong, you're dead-on right! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I see more than anything else in this chapter was the real fruit born from the tantalizing hints that Mhoram had been musing over. The big question that had to be answered was, “Is there a way to harness the might employed by the power of the ritual in a way that would be both effective against the siege and wouldn’t overtly defy the oath of peace?” We discover that Mhoram has begun to experiment with the concept and outwardly displays his newly acquired power. This is a very exciting moment in the story. There is also hope in the world.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Hey! I'm one of the people you convinced, and now you're backing off??? Smile

I am a little late replying to this, but I will only say that I have reread White Gold Wielder, where a short conversations with Kevin provides an authoratative angle on the question. Still I like to speculate and having two possibilities does not bother me much. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Covenant Factor" and Mhoram:

I read the beginning of this chapter at work today and though it focuses on High Lord Mhoram, TC kept popping into my head. SRD talks about the gifts Mhoram has that seperate him from the other Lords; his gift that allows him to be able to see the bigger picture of the siege that might lead to a better defense of Revelstone. We witness his logic and control where the Ritual is concerned. We know Mhoram has some serious inner strenght, and from his work with the Krill we learn his qualities of patience, painstaking search for new lore and remarkable perserverance. Touching the Raver must have taught him incredible things, not only about the depths of his true strenght but the true peril of the Land.

Mhoram's power as a seer is occulded by the Illearth Stone, just as Covenant's power is stymied by his unbelief. Yet in a way Covenant understands the big picture, especially where Foul is concerned. Covenant looks at Foul's "other worldly" power realistically whereas the Oath of Peace has, to certain extents, blinded the New Lords. Perhaps Mhoram's exposure to the way Convenant thinks, especially during his travels with him in LFB and all the talks they have at the beginning of TIW have rubbed off on him. With this type of "vision" Mhoram is able to break the spell and see past Satansfist directly to Foul himself. To realize he is the active enemy and is exerting tremendous amounts of power toward the Keep from the larger piece of the stone at his own expense. Covenant's survival mode has helped to enhance his preserverence and Covenant's unbelief helps sustain his Oath.

In an odd way, Mhoram has the rhadhamaerl and Gravelingases begin CPR on a leprosy patient...Revelstone
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