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AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:29 am    Post subject: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

Really I am SHOCKED Shocked by Linden's actions at the end of FR. How she could bring Covenant back from the Dead!! What was she thinking???
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
What was she thinking???

Maybe... "why not?" Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

She's thinking..she needs someone she can trust who knows what he's doing to help her.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drew wrote:
She's thinking..she needs someone she can trust who knows what he's doing to help her.


yep ... the story is full of desperate people on the edge of despair ... and the decision, mistakes and triumphs they make along the way ... this is a doozy!

Smile

luv it!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(There's some other good threads on this very same topic. There's some good posts about it.)

My opinion is that everything - from Caer-Caveral to Caerroil Wildwood to Esmer to Roger to Covenant himself - pointed Linden toward doing exactly what she did. And it wasn't a mistake -- although it might be expensive.

- Caer-Caveral opened the door, but in the Second Cs Covenant never came through it. Why then did CC open it so wide? For this.

- Caerroil Wildwood gave Linden the means. He gave the woman in whom he trusted to answer the meaning of existence the means.

- Esmer makes the ring useless in Lindens hands. In whose hands should it be?

- When Roger showed up as his father, didn't that get Linden thinking, gee, it would be great if Covenant were here? Now, who's the kind of guy who would know exactly that that would happen and so he gave Roger the idea? ... and do we avoid his snares, or enter them?

- And Covenant said Find me. Remember that I am dead.

Finally, consider that either the Insequent or the Elohim would have attempted to stop her had she really threatened the Arch of Time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points wayfriend. I think that she's also trying to be unpredictable to confuse foul, Although he could have forseen this long ago.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think LF has actually hoped for this to happen, what he does not know though is what LA and TC will now make of the situation.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the answer is a lot less subtle . . . Linden tells us why over and over and over and over . . . Foul has her son!

She tells us she doesn't care about anything else . . . she tells us she will do anything. The reason she brings back Covenant is she believes it to be the only chance of saving Jeremiah.

Even if it dooms the Land . . . oh sure, the doom of the Land not a definite in her mind. She is not thinking: "If I do this then everyone will die and the land will succumb to Despite."

No . . . there is still hope. Still uncertainty. Foul has certainly proven that even his best laid plans can be turned against him.

But it doesn't really matter to her. And should it? What would I do for my children? If Foul had a child of mine and was doing unspeakable things to her . . . if she was lost, alone and suffering . . . what would I do? Would I care about the Land? Would I sacrifice her to save it . . . to maybe save it?

Of course not! None of us would . . . not when there is a hope than an alternative, however desperate, could save them. It is hard to say otherwise . . . this isn't an imaginary scenario - Linden is really facing the captivity and torture of her son. I assure you that my heart would turn cold stone in such a situation and no words of haruchai or Elohim would change my course.

And that is also a great difference between Linden and the people of the Land. Would an haruchai sacrifice a child in such as situation as Linden faces? No question.

Would a Ramen? Probably.

A Giant? Yes, even a Giant who love their Children more than anything.

But Linden . . . from "our world". She can not and will not.

And that distinction is doubly important for Covenant has a child here as well . . . will he sacrifice Roger? Or even fight him?

No . . . I don't think he will.

Roger, who he failed. Roger who he abandoned. Roger who was left alone to be victimized by Foul in the care of an insane woman while his father was off saving some "magical land" and "being part of the Arch of Time . . ."

Assuredly Roger will be safe from Covenant . . . and, therefore, safe from Linden, the haruchai, the giants, Insequent and eveyone else . . . as long as Covenant has anything to say about it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall, good post, except for:

Quote:
Roger, who he failed. Roger who he abandoned. Roger who was left alone to be victimized by Foul in the care of an insane woman while his father was off saving some "magical land" and "being part of the Arch of Time . . ."


TC isn't guilty of any of this, he didn't fail or abandon Roger and he's certainly not responsible for Roger's upbringing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Overall, good post, except for:

Quote:
Roger, who he failed. Roger who he abandoned. Roger who was left alone to be victimized by Foul in the care of an insane woman while his father was off saving some "magical land" and "being part of the Arch of Time . . ."


TC isn't guilty of any of this, he didn't fail or abandon Roger and he's certainly not responsible for Roger's upbringing.


In fact, the person most responsible for failing Roger and putting him in this position is his mother. His father had no choice in terms of "kiting off to save some magical land"....TC certainly didn't summon himself.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This says it all for me:

"Linden, do you not know that you are admirable in my sight?
Your intent is not to destroy the Earth, but to redeem it,
as you seek also to redeem your son.
I will abide the outcome with you."


Also, I can certainly see Covenant saying, I'll help save your son if you help save mine. For he had said
In White Gold Weilder, Donaldson wrote:
"I should've understood," Covenant went on, addressing no one but the cold stars. "I should've given Seadreamer some kind of caamora. Should've found some way to save Hamako. Forget the risk. Mhoram took a terrible risk when he let me go. But anything worth saving won't be destroyed by choices like that."

How can SRD, after writing that, expect us to believe that it was wrong, that Linden is wrong to try and save her son?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Overall, good post, except for:

Quote:
Roger, who he failed. Roger who he abandoned. Roger who was left alone to be victimized by Foul in the care of an insane woman while his father was off saving some "magical land" and "being part of the Arch of Time . . ."


TC isn't guilty of any of this, he didn't fail or abandon Roger and he's certainly not responsible for Roger's upbringing.


I may not have conveyed it well, but I was trying to say this as a kind of self-guilt that Covenant may bestow upon himself. As any parent whose child commits atrocities tries to make sense of what happened. They lay blame upon themselves, question past decisions, second guess choices and wish they could do things over.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fabulous postings everyone, especially 'beyond', who has taken the words right from my fingertips.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyondthebreach wrote:
dlbpharmd wrote:
Overall, good post, except for:

Quote:
Roger, who he failed. Roger who he abandoned. Roger who was left alone to be victimized by Foul in the care of an insane woman while his father was off saving some "magical land" and "being part of the Arch of Time . . ."


TC isn't guilty of any of this, he didn't fail or abandon Roger and he's certainly not responsible for Roger's upbringing.


I may not have conveyed it well, but I was trying to say this as a kind of self-guilt that Covenant may bestow upon himself. As any parent whose child commits atrocities tries to make sense of what happened. They lay blame upon themselves, question past decisions, second guess choices and wish they could do things over.


OK, I understand now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GREAT posts. I didn't mean to imply Linden was wrong; but I guess I just thought that A. her love and compassion for Covenant B. her fear of messing too much with the Arch and C. her own self-doubt would have kept her from taking such a leap.

But I guess when you put the pieces together it makes sense. "Find me." "Do something they don't expect." "I am not the White Gold's rightful wielder." "I can't wield the Staff and wild magic." "He has my son!" Then Covenant's seeming revenance only provoked her desire to have him and his help.

It does make sense. It just shocked me at the time. Well done, SRD!! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to think about is how this would effect the Land similar to the summoning of Elena and Berek.......what will be the consequences of her decision to bring back TC?? Remember in the Land there are consequences to everyones choices.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brinn of the Haruchai wrote:
Another thing to think about is how this would effect the Land similar to the summoning of Elena and Berek.......what will be the consequences of her decision to bring back TC?? Remember in the Land there are consequences to everyones choices.

Assuredly. But the Law of Life has already been broken, and Wildwood gave Linden the lore she needed to do this task in the right way, so I cannot see that kind of a problem.

If the honor guard of the Lawbreakers means anything, I think it means that they, who know all about the consequences, respect what is happening.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I somehow misunderstand TC's relationship to the AoT? I thought that he was a part of the AoT now. Then, I read in FR that he's its "gaurdian." So...was he there to defend it...near it...or part of it.

I can't see him being a part of it and then being summoned back to life without that breaking the arch...an integral part of it would be missing. The caesures may wear at the arch, but we are led to understand that the pieces are thrown back at it...not so with TC's summoning.

Thoughts? Clarifications?

And yeah, I'm also kind of uncertain about how I feel regarding LA bringing TC back. I kind of wanted to see Stave love her, hahaha (as unlikely as that is)...now that chance is blown!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharinet wrote:

And yeah, I'm also kind of uncertain about how I feel regarding LA bringing TC back. I kind of wanted to see Stave love her, hahaha (as unlikely as that is)...now that chance is blown!


Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought it would do her some good. She seriously needs to relax, and some good old fashioned Haruchai lovin' would probably do the trick Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharinet wrote:
Thoughts? Clarifications?

Too many good threads about this very topic to summarize. And one or two on Linden and Stave as well.

TC's last words

A Letter to Linden Avery (aka, I just finished FR)

Implications of Covenents ressurection

Is Covenant 'made' or 'summoned'?

Covenant, the Arch, and Book 9

The End of Fatal Revenant: regarding Covenant

A VERY fragile Arch of Time...

Stave and Lindens affair

I keep coming back to, why does his changing from death to life need to change his relationship with the Arch? It did not when he died, and it did not when he was resurrected to defend it against Foul.

Then again, things change over time.
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