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AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rigel wrote:
amanibhavam wrote:
He got over the "this is not real" stuff by the beginning of TWL.


I don't think so. He offers Linden two explanations for what's happening to her: the "this is real" one, and the "this is a dream" one. But he never says which one he subscribes to.


What Amanibhavam is trying to say (if I'm not being too presumptuous) is that at the beginning of TWL, it doesn't matter to Covenant whether the Land is real or not. All that matters is his love for it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that was what I meant. Thank you, dlbpharmd.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
Okay, an aside about FR cover art. I thought it was Anele, although he looked too commanding, but I was thinking that he regained the Staff and was now all that. As I read I went, O, that's Caerroil WW!! :0

I wasn't sure when I first got it. I thought it was a Forestal but CWW usually had a necklace (not sure of proper term) of flowers on, too. I didn't think of Anele. Interesting!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought re. the rousing of the Worm of the World's End:

As the previous Guardian of the One Tree, the Theomach must have also learnt a lot about the WotWE - maybe he can now bring it back under control.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the watch, shiftshaper!

That's a real interesting idea. After all, Donaldson didn't bring the Guardian back into the story without a good reason.

However, Infelice said, "Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured." Which may mean that they are involved in calming the Worm.

Perhaps the Theomach will feed the Worm some Elohim... warm and wrrriggggling. Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Welcome to the watch, shiftshaper!

Ditto!

wayfriend wrote:
Perhaps the Theomach will feed the Worm some Elohim... warm and wrrriggggling. Evil or Very Mad

Elohim: Bright and colorful on the outside, soft and chewy on the inside. Melt into the air not in your hand.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Infelice said, "Because of her madness and folly, every Elohim will be devoured."

Last time the Worm was up and hungry, he ate the stars until he was so full that he went to sleep and became the substance of the earth, IIRC.

So what are the Elohim saying? Is there some connection between them and the Creator's children, the stars?

Somewhere there was a wonderful and lengthy post that explained it all- the Worm, the Elohim, everything. *goes to look*
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it in "The Elohim" thread.

IrrationalSanity wrote:
Quote:
There is a pretty good case to be made that the Elohim are the either:

1. the sentience that remains of the consumed stars, just as the surface of the earth itself is a secretion of their physical remains.

or

2. a terrestrial manifestation of the stars which remain.

Although my interpretation was leaning toward the first until the most recent book, the second is given a little more weight at the present time based on Infelice's statement that the rousing Worm will consume every last Elohim.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
Really I am SHOCKED Shocked by Linden's actions at the end of FR. How she could bring Covenant back from the Dead!! What was she thinking???


If the Dead would not talk to her, Why did she think it was a good idea to invoke TC back from the dead? Everyone at Andelain, made question of her motives before she did this? After she did this, the first thing TC did was act like he was extremely PO'd at her.

In my reading of the text, I did not get that anyone wanted her to do this, as mentioned in earlier posts.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

Wheelwash Whitecap wrote:
f the Dead would not talk to her, Why did she think it was a good idea to invoke TC back from the dead? Everyone at Andelain, made question of her motives before she did this? After she did this, the first thing TC did was act like he was extremely PO'd at her.

In my reading of the text, I did not get that anyone wanted her to do this, as mentioned in earlier posts.


I wrote it somewhere before. "Oh Linden, what hjave you done?" doesn't sound PO'd at all. It sounds like he's full of sympathy for her, like he knows shs's done the right thing but will have to pay a high price for it. If he were angry he'd never said "Oh" but "HELLFIRE."

And of course she has done the right thing. It can't be otherwise, because it's the way SRD wants HIS story to take.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ending of Fatal Revenant was Linden surrendering to Despair in a little way. Given the fact that Lord Foul is out there "speaking a word of counsel here and there", Kastenessen and his grandson Esmer are using Kevin's Dirt and the skurj to hinder her use of Earthpower (on a side note, Liand is more resourceful than I originally thought he would be), Roger has mutilated himself with part of Kastenessen and is "seeking ruin", Jeremiah is being abused by a croyel, the Harrow wants her ring and Staff, and Joan is continually creating caesures...she is feeling quite overwhelmed.

I suspect Foul counseled Kastenessen and Esmer as to how to create Kevin's Dirt; they appear to be based out of Gravin Threndor so Foul must be back in Ridjeck Thome. Or he could be in Earthroot, but I highly doubt that.

Anyway...this is the "throw everything at the target and see what sticks" approach to bringing down the Arch of Time. Overwhelm Linden with too much for her to handle alone --> she will resurrect Covenant --> the Arch of Time is weakened.

I don't think Covenant is mad with Linden, just staggered that she would go to that extreme. He did tell her to "do something they don't expect", after all. She just followed his advice.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, the people who encouraged Linden to resurrect Covenant included Covenant ("Find me") and Caerroil Wildwood (who gave her the means knowing she would use it) and the Dead (who let her pass), and Dead Hollian (who cautioned her but encouraged her as well), and Roger (indirectly by opposing her knowing what she would do).

And I don't consider her actions a surrender to despair. I do consider them entering Foul's trap. Which is the only way to defeat him, as we should know by know. A variety of people don't understand that, like Infelice. But a number of them do, such as Dead Hollian. So we should fully expect a number of people shouting at Linden that she's doing it wrong and that she's endangering the Arch ... that only means she's on the right track!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: I don't get it Reply with quote

Linden has completely thrown away the entire history of the Land in order to "save" her son. But I find it completely unbelievable.

What is the point of all the prior history of the Land where people have attempted (or actually completed) in breaking the Law of Death. Bad, bad things happened. How could Linden not comprehend this?

She keeps saying, "Lord Foul has my son."

Fine. But Lord Foul has had her son for many, many years. What does another day, or another week, or another month mean in the grand scheme of things?! She's not thinking, nor rationale, nor someone I would be all that assured in following without question. A mother seeking out her son? Yeah, that's an equation for rational thought.

So despite the travesties that have happened in prior books when the Dead were called into service, Linden has done something completely unoriginal and problematic.

When Covenant said, "Find me," he wasn't necessarily implying, "Raise me from the dead and my duty as timewarden." No, I think he was saying, "Find me" and talk to me further, as this method of communication is not ideal.

Instead, we get some weird, unexplained reason why the Dead cannot or will not or have somehow been forbidden to speak to Linden.

All this pawn playing gets silly. I mean, I think an 8 year old could see through Lord Foul's machinations in this plot. You'd think someone who spent as much time with Covenant as Linden has -- and understanding all of the Despite Lord Foul can bring -- would make her wiser.

Instead, she seems even more naive than she was in the second series. Way more naive. Way less powerful.

A disappointment. This isn't the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. This is "Linden Avery, How Can We Draw This Out For Another Series?"

Sorry, but I just got done FR and expected something... more... substantial.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ ^ HLT, is that you in disguise? Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, a newbie. I grew up on SRD's series and preferred the story over Tolkien. But by the second series, I started to question my choices/preference, when it seemed like half the series was about TC sitting back and doing nothing (or being unconscious). That got old, especially when people died when he failed to act.

I see less of that in this series, thankfully. LA does act. But there's still a lot of "Hey, here's this battle going on, let's think about things for 10 minutes before we actually do anything to help." Like I said, less so, but still annoying to have to flip through 5 pages of such thoughts before you get to any action.

And I *like* thoughtfulness and contemplation. Just not during a battle.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the deal... I *never* thought LA would raise TC from the dead. I thought SRD had well-established that this was a Very Bad Thing that nobody would ever do again. So I was a little taken aback when it happened.

But now, I understand why he did it. You can't very well have the "Last Chronicles of TC" without actually having some TC in it (and not just in the form of a "glamour" that apparently LA had no ability to see through, nor anyone bothered to tell her).

It makes sense. TC will save the day with LA in tow (or vice-a-versa), but it would've been far more rewarding to see LA really learn something from her power wielding, and used that knowledge instead of relying upon someone else's knowledge who has long since been dead.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be Welcome and True, Quire. Please consider visiting the Summoning and introducing yourself. Not mandatory; just a courteous suggestion.

Interesting thoughts you've added to this thread. Being one who trusts SRD (although I am still OPAL - Opinion Pending About Linden - I expect that her actions will end up aggregating to the benefit of the Land), all I can say is we need to be patient. In time we will get to RAFO - Read And Find Out.

In the meantime, looking forward to your contributions throughout the Watch. Oh, and as for the remaining two volumes of the Last Chrons: hang on for a potentially bumpy ride!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did Linden summon Covenant from the grave? Because she has no faith in her abilities. She's willing to do anything to save her son, but feels that her talents do not suffice...but that Covenant's does. I think she's in for a big disappointment...at least initially Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
Really I am SHOCKED Shocked by Linden's actions at the end of FR. How she could bring Covenant back from the Dead!! What was she thinking???
I have real sypathy for Linden here. All the way through the third series to date Covenant has been sending her cryptic and mixed signals as to what she should be doing, many of which have been of the mode 'Do what you think is right Linden', 'Follow your heart Linden', etc etc...., then the first time she actually does that he apears and goes 'AAAggghhhh!!!! Linden! - What have you done!' If I were her I would shout 'Well if you hadn't been so bloody evasive perhaps I would have had a better idea of what I was doing you arrogant b#!*#%d!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler) Reply with quote

peter wrote:
deer of the dawn wrote:
Really I am SHOCKED Shocked by Linden's actions at the end of FR. How she could bring Covenant back from the Dead!! What was she thinking???
I have real sypathy for Linden here. All the way through the third series to date Covenant has been sending her cryptic and mixed signals as to what she should be doing, many of which have been of the mode 'Do what you think is right Linden', 'Follow your heart Linden', etc etc...., then the first time she actually does that he apears and goes 'AAAggghhhh!!!! Linden! - What have you done!' If I were her I would shout 'Well if you hadn't been so bloody evasive perhaps I would have had a better idea of what I was doing you arrogant b#!*#%d!


I agree!
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