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AAAggghhhh!!!! HOW COULD SHE?? (ending spoiler)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another way of looking at it. (Not that I don't agree with peter completely.)

In the first Chronicles, Donaldson created Covenant as a character who actually had the capacity to destroy (or damn) the Land rather than save it. Unbelief. Rape. Selfishness. Bargains. We the reader were in real suspense - would he or would he not save the Land? The other characters in the Land had doubts as well, doubts that we the reader could not dispute. Covenant prevails in the end, but there is no "of course" about it. It comes right down to the wire.

The same thing happened in the Second Chronicles, in many ways. Things happened which encouraged us to doubt Thomas. The venom. The blackness. Dead Kevin's warnings. Pitchwife cracked his flute for good reasons. Again, there was real suspense.

And, to a lesser extent, we experienced similar thoughts about Linden. We doubted her strength. We doubted her belief in evil. Lord Foul vowed she would do horrible things. She coveted the ring, and was able to possess Covenant to get it. The Haruchai doubted her for good reason. Again, there was real suspense.

That's what Donaldson does. He doesn't create Dudley Doright heroes who you can trust to be good and pure and save the day if they can.

He creates antagonists that you can doubt. That you must doubt.

King Joyse. Warden Dios. Angus. Mick Axbrewder. All fit this mold.

So are we surprised that in the Final Chronicles Donaldson is writing his story so that we can doubt Linden Avery? So that we must doubt her?

I think he's a genious in the way that he is doing it.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
"No!" the First protested. "You must not doubt. It is doubt which weakens - doubt which corrupts. Therefore is this Despiser powerful. He does not doubt While you are certain, there is hope." Her iron voice betrayed a note of fear. "This price will be exacted from him if you do not doubt!"

Covenant looked at her for a moment. "That's wrong." He spoke softly, in threat or appeal. "You need to doubt. Certainty is terrible. Let Foul have it. Doubt makes you human." His gaze shifted toward Linden. It reached out to her like flame or beggary, the culmination and defeat of all his power in the Banefire. "You need every doubt you can find. I want you to doubt. I'm hardly human anymore."

... Sighing, Pitchwife gained his feet. He held his flute in both hands. His gaze was focused on nothing as he snapped the small instrument in half. With all his strength, he hurled the pieces toward the Hills.

Linden winced. An expostulation died on the Firsts lips.

Covenant's shoulders hunched.

As grim as a cripple, Pitchwife raised his eyes to the Un-believer. "Heed me well," he murmured clearly. "I doubt."

"Good!" Covenant rasped intensely.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. And we see this again the FR when Linden refuses to explain her motives to her companions. She tells them she wants them to question and doubt her, to trust their own instincts. (I think this is just before they get to Andelain?)
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm mostly on Linden's side on most of this (possibly I'm alone).

If you give somebody indecipherable instructions, and then act shocked when the person fucks them up, it's YOUR fault, not theirs.

She's doing the best she can being dealt the world's shittiest hand, with the world's most unintelligible people telling her how to play it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, although I may be wrong, that Linden Avery is only a partial piece of the puzzle in the salvation of the Land. And she knows it. She has the gift of healing and seeing but Thomas Covenant is and always has been the white gold, crux of the earth. She, in her love and desire, knows that alone each one of them is powerless to completely defeat Lord Foul and save the Land, despite all the Elohim have to say about it. The Elohim have an agenda which will preserve their way of life. Her love for Covenant is an important ingredient. Without this love, nothing would be possible. However, Jeremiah is the key. What his role will be remains to be seen but it will take her two greatest loves...along with herself...to save the Land. She knows that all of them are dead to the real world, now there has to be an answer as to why all three of them are connected to the Land for all eternity.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kimberly,

I'm sure you see the obviousness of her tied into the Staff of Law, who wouldn't. Yes, there has to be more to Linden than meets the eye, and we may all just have to be patient and wait untill the final story is told.

All I really wanted to say is that ever since reading the Wounded Land I've had a mental image of a tree filled with birds. A linden tree. But ultimately can't make heads or tails from this.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if I were to find out that Stephen Donaldson was a Doors fan, back in his college days maybe. I'm always drawn to their album L.A. Woman where Linden is concerned and can't shake off the idea that there might be a connection here. If you wish to listen to the title track here is the u tube url: 07.50.

I don't want to air my thoughts about this at this time, for now I'll keep them to myself. These have just been some disjointed ideas on the subject which you can make up your own mind about.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat wrote:
All I really wanted to say is that ever since reading the Wounded Land I've had a mental image of a tree filled with birds. A linden tree. But ultimately can't make heads or tails from this.

Sorry, Krazy Kat, but that's not Krazy...
In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
... Also, just because I'm curious and asking about names - when you created Linden Avery and her name, did the idea come from the Linden tree, which has heart shaped leaves - thus, Thomas Covenant's love interest?
    Good call about Linden's name. But I had other intentions as well. "Linden"=tree. Avery=aviary=birds. Both "nature" references. Which I considered appropriate for a woman who would become the Land's great healer at the end of "The Second Chronicles".

    (09/17/2004)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are all good posts which mirror some of my questions.

But I've now read the first chapter of the next book, from the SRD website... Has anyone else?

*spoiler of the first chapter alert*





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Spoiler:
She went from being so, soooo confident, and down right rebellious in her determination to bring back Covenant, all the way to quailing, quivering and being her normal whingy self, IMMEDIATELY upon TC's resurrection with practically no interval! She didn't even give him a chance to explain anything before she went over and hit him and then started gibbering as if all is indeed lost... had she nothing of her former unbounded confidence that she could muster, at least to think of a way forward?

How could she have grasped, so quickly, the gravity of her ostensible error?

I do not get this.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Linden HAD to do what she did.

For the story.

Usually, squeals suck. They are just a re-hashing of the original story.
Not with Donaldson though.

He didn't do it with the second chronicles, and its obvious he didn't do it with the last chronicles.

Now our heros will have to fix what one of their own caused. I think its brilliant.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
I get why she "had" to do it... and I also understand why she might then regret it. I just don't understand how she can go from one to the opposite with virtually no interval - to me it seems like she didn't have enough time to fully appreciate that she did the wrong thing...

She's only taking the Elohim's (and Kevin's and the Humbled's) word for it that she even has done anything wrong - that the Worm has been woken and that it can't be put back to sleep. Even if she eventually understands what she's done, surely it'd take a bit of time to sink in....

After all, the very object of her prior aim - Covenant - is standing in the flesh in front of her.... at least for a moment I'd have thought she'd considered herself successful - and she knows that she'd have resurrected Covenant at any price. And she previously knew this was possible, because the Ranhyn had warned her. But she immediately changes her tune, despite it even being fairly unsurprising to her.

For that matter, here's a related question: Why didn't the Elohim just say to her beforehand, straight up, that she believed the Worm would be awoken, if that was going to be a good disincentive for Linden? If she was so desperate, why hush it up? Spelling out the possible ramifications of a choice is hardly a coercion, so telling Linden would not have taken away her free will in the matter, or anything like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I haven't been reading the above posts, for fear of spoilers, but if they are spoilers, can we edit the posts to use spoiler tags? Or else move the discussion to the AATE forum?)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drew wrote:
Spoiler:
Linden HAD to do what she did.

For the story.

Usually, squeals suck. They are just a re-hashing of the original story.
Not with Donaldson though.

He didn't do it with the second chronicles, and its obvious he didn't do it with the last chronicles.

Now our heros will have to fix what one of their own caused. I think its brilliant.


[mod edit]




wayfriend wrote:
(I haven't been reading the above posts, for fear of spoilers, but if they are spoilers, can we edit the posts to use spoiler tags? Or else move the discussion to the AATE forum?)



I don't understand why this was spoilered. There is nothing in there that even barely mentions the slightest hint to anything about AATE.

All I did was to the best of my ability answer the question asked in the title of the thread.

Nevermind though. I just won't bother posting anything about the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant anymore, if I even have to spoiler articles that are written in an appropriate thread.

Geesh!!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drew, I spoiler-tagged your post because it is in response to tomposer's initial post, which does indeed contain spoiler material, and his post in reply to you also contains spoiler material. I agree that your reply does not contain AATE material, but I can't hardly spoiler-tag his part of the conversation and leave your post unedited.

My personal policy is to be extra cautious when protecting readers from spoilers. I have not censored your post in any way other than to spoiler-tag it. There's really no need for you to avoid TC forums, and certainly no need for you to be offended.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may have to spoiler tag this..

Spoiler:
When Linden slapped TC after the successful resurrection... Why did she? What was her motivation? Was it because he'd disappointed her or upset her by not being the all-knowing, all seeing arch of time? Was it because she was just a bitch? Or was it because she felt he'd led her to Andelain and given her clues ('find me') in order for her to do this, and then after she goes to all this trouble asks 'What have you done?' Or could she see that he needed the physical stimulus to concentrate on matters at hand..

As for the rousing of the world.. I think she had fair warning that what she may attempt would cause such peril, definitely. She had no reason to be surprised when it did so.. It's just that.. remember when Fangthane sspoke to her on her arrival in the land, she saw images - what I always felt were predictions - of all sorts of horrors set to befall the Land, including the Skurj, but was there any mention of something that looked like it may have been the Worm of the World's End?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read the new chapter! YES! Getting very excited~!!!
In answer to the question:
Quote:
Spoiler:
She went from being so, soooo confident, and down right rebellious in her determination to bring back Covenant, all the way to quailing, quivering and being her normal whingy self, IMMEDIATELY upon TC's resurrection with practically no interval! She didn't even give him a chance to explain anything before she went over and hit him and then started gibbering as if all is indeed lost... had she nothing of her former unbounded confidence that she could muster, at least to think of a way forward?

How could she have grasped, so quickly, the gravity of her ostensible error?

I do not get this.
Spoiler:


i think the answer is right there in the last line of FR... We all posted about it. We all groaned and thought, Oh, geez, Linden, what HAVE you done...
TC kept telling her to find him. She confidently thought that he would be the saviour (and take the burden off her and then find her son)... but with one deparing sentence, it all came crashing down... now in the new chapter TC tries deperately to explain it as his fragile being collapses....


NEW CHAPTER!!! WOO HOO! Cheers Banana
I am so f--king happy!!!![/spoiler]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is more along the lines of that spoiler... so you might need to black it out (I'm not sure how to do that).





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Spoiler:

I still think SD is asking a lot of us with this one. I've put aside such niggling questions about his stories in the past, and I no doubt will again in this case. But even though I love his stuff and I'll push on, I'm going to have trouble accepting this one on face value.

This is the crux: It seems to me SD is pushing the believability envelope of the Linden character. I can accept that she had to do it. I can accept that she realised she'd made a terrible mistake. But I still have difficulty with the notion of her going from defiant confidence - defiant in the face of multiple warnings about what very well may happen - to complete, utter despondency immediately upon being advised of her mistake. As I said, this should not have surprised her.

I expected a) some joy - just a teeny bit - at seeing Covenant - she was pining for him all the way through FR and TROTE for pete's sake; and b) a period whilst her zealousness continued.

The only explanation I'm going on is that she's totally cracked. She had an idea what was going to happen, and when it did it's sort of broken her. So now we're stuck with two broken lead characters.

Just where SD wants us to be stuck, I suspect Smile Smile Wink .


p.s. Besides, I still don't get why the Elhoim didn't just come out and say it. The choice thing just doesn't wash... she'd have had a better choice if someone had just come out and stated it clearly.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoilered, just in case:

Spoiler:
The thing is...while "defiant" may apply, I don't think "confident" does at all...to me it felt like pure willpower forced on her by desperation and sheer terror. She's sold everything she owns, and is betting it all on one big lottery ticket. The slap comes directly out of her feeling of utter failure...a slap, or a coma are the instant options.

And I simply disagree with the opinions that she is whiny and 2 dimensional.

Tomposer: the spoiler tag is the far right button just below subject line on submit screen.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also spoilered, just in case...
Spoiler:
I think a lot of this will be answered when we get to read Chapter 2 ("The Burden of Too Much Willpower" Wink ) and we see what she's thinking. She's already thought "the Ranyhyn tried to warn her" -- showing that she's already realizing her mistake.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Be that as it may - failing to win the lottery that is - doesn't account for her immediate and complete dismay at seeing Covenant in the flesh.

Because him being there is exactly what she wanted in spite of everything else, which she more or less expected, or at least anticipated as one possibility.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way,
I should remark that I'm not dissing SD. Part of what draws me back to his work is the frequent incongruity. With other authors I can't put up with it so much, but I think perplexing the reader is, for SD, a useful device for building the story.

Sometimes he pushes it further than other times. I'm not even convinced that he plans out his plots particularly thoroughly - after reading so much of his work I get the impression he just as often makes it up as he goes along, and has to live with what's already gone before, much like a star trek author Smile . I know saying all of this sounds harsh, but for me it's all part of the SD experience which I do in fact believe is a very valuable one. It's just not conventional.

Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomposer wrote:
Spoiler:
Be that as it may - failing to win the lottery that is - doesn't account for her immediate and complete dismay at seeing Covenant in the flesh.

Because him being there is exactly what she wanted in spite of everything else, which she more or less expected, or at least anticipated as one possibility.


Spoiler:
But it is not his being there that sets her off...it is him saying "What have you done" AND the fact unmentioned till later, but instantly recognized by her that he is once again a leper.

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