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The size of the Council of Lords
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: The size of the Council of Lords Reply with quote

I was thinking about the Council of Lords the other day and got to wondering how big it was in Kevin's day, or even during times when the New Lords had more strength.

In Lord Foul's Bane, it is mentioned that the Council numbers only five (emphasis mine), so this must be considered small even for the New Lords. Elena's Council had nine members, but it isn't mentioned whether or not this is considered average or large, and we know that the table the Lords sit at easily sits 11 (the nine Lords plus Troy and Covenant).

So how big do you think the Council was in Kevin's day, or at the height of the New Lords' strength?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, apparently to become a Lord, you need to pass the tests of both Staff & Sword. (as mentioned in LFB) Also a lot of people who did pass these tests decided to become the Unfettered rather than a Lord. As the New Lords had difficulty in understanding Kevin's Wards, it may have taken them longer to become a Lord.

From what I have read, there were many Old Lords along with Berek, Damelon etc. Mentioned that Kevin sent quite a few to Treachers Gorge instaed of himself at the beginning of the war that led to the ROD.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose one could determine a possible "maximum" number of Lords if you had a count of the number of doors or suites of rooms dedicated as personal quarters for Lords in Revelstone. I'm guessing the Giants might have been instructed as to said Maximum before construction.

On the other hand the number of rooms might have been arbitrarily determined by the Giants. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep..the Giants made alot of rooms...i think enough to house an entire small city, maybe 5000 people or so...just a guess since they were able to house all of Revelwood when they arrived for the Cold war at Revelstone. I wonder if the Giants built any Giant sized rooms for themselves when they were guests?

could have been back then Lords were a dime a dozen without the Oath of peace preventing their success, they might have had an open doorway much easier to pass through.

I was thinking about Stories of the land written by 3rd parties and SRD doesnt SEEM to mind people writing stories about the land or offshoots of its inhabitants that he has no intentions of giving background to, so anyone who writes about it is actually making new land history. If the SRD has no intentions of going there in the first place..its new ground if if he doesnt object to it anyway.

does anyone know how many land based stories are in the anthologies written by members here?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blackhawk wrote:
yep..the Giants made alot of rooms...i think enough to house an entire small city, maybe 5000 people or so...just a guess since they were able to house all of Revelwood when they arrived for the Cold war at Revelstone.
does anyone know how many land based stories are in the anthologies written by members here?


Regarding the rooms of Revelstone (sounds like a cheap hotel of the Land) I was referring to the specific location in Revelstone where the Lords quarters were housed. That circular hall was illuminated by an earthpowerful stone in the floor and there were only a finite number of rooms available. I need to re read the section of LFB that describes it but it's possible SRD might have even included an actual number of rooms, maybe a total of 12. I can't remember.

As to the Anthologies, there are no fan fictions permitted due to copyright issues. All the stories compiled in them are wholly owned by their respective authors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was checking out the layout of the council chamber and it says there are only three doors..the one TC entered through the first time and two more at the same level on the far side.. i do remember a room that has doors accessing each lords chambers...or maybe it was only the high lord..ill have to find more.

i guess there were nine lords during the Illearth war. I got this from the chapter Dukkha.

The nine Lords were already on the dais. They stood in a circle facing each other. With their backs to the torches, their faces were shadowed, and Covenant could not make out their features.
"This is your doing," said Troy in an intent whisper. "They have tried everything else. You shamed them into this.

still cant find anything about the lords chambers outside Elena, Callendrill and Mhoram.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: The size of the Council of Lords Reply with quote

Quote:
i guess there were nine lords during the Illearth war.


yup; Elena, Mhoram, Trevor, Shetra, Loerya, Amatin, Callindrill, Hyrim and the other guy, Barry I think his name was .. no, Verement ..
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: The size of the Council of Lords Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
and the other guy, Barry I think his name was .. no, Verement ..

Barry? Great. Now every time I reread the books I will be picturing Greg Brady sitting on the Council.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is never mentioned in the text, then I suppose the ONLY evidence would be the number of quarters set aside for the Lords. I'd have to go back and find the description to see if SRD calls out the exact number for doors (I'm sure other accommodations might be made if there were more Lords than chambers but something tells be the number wouldn't exceed the alloted rooms). I've asked others and the number 9 has been offered. That could be. Or perhaps 12. I'll try to pull out my books this weekend and have a look.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, I just can't see the council telling someone "You've passed the tests of Staff & Sword, but you can't be a Lord, because we're out of rooms." Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin BeerDrinker wrote:
However, I just can't see the council telling someone "You've passed the tests of Staff & Sword, but you can't be a Lord, because we're out of rooms." Smile


That would be kind of rude and fairly heartbreaking for the hapless "Lord Wannabe". Perhaps some of the unfettered were sent packing into the woods because of this unfortunate circumstance. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC there were also balconies or passageways above the level of the Lords' chambers, perhaps there would be more suites up there.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin BeerDrinker wrote:
However, I just can't see the council telling someone "You've passed the tests of Staff & Sword, but you can't be a Lord, because we're out of rooms." Smile



hehe...maybe thats why so many became unfettered....they told the staff elders..hey....psssst....were outta Lords Chambers up here...make those tests harder and try to get new graduates to take the right of unfettering, well..unless they are seer, oracle or profit...or any of those combinations got it? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The size of the Council of Lords Reply with quote

Andy Kalish wrote:
SleeplessOne wrote:
and the other guy, Barry I think his name was .. no, Verement ..

Barry? Great. Now every time I reread the books I will be picturing Greg Brady sitting on the Council.


you think you've got problems?
I can never figure out if barry is the tall or short one of the chuckle brothers!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps there was an optimum number that could participate in the mindmeld of the Lords, and so the Lords aspired to have this many Lords at a time if possible. We can assume that this number would have been substantially more than the five incumbent Lords we find in LFB and again at the start of TPTP. I await with bated breath the number of Lords' executive suites that other commenters find upon re-reading.

Having said that, we can also assume that the Lords would not have been inflexible on the question of numbers on the Council and that if a particularly gifted candidate passed the tests s/he would be included on the Council even if it meant exceeding the optimum number.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice excavation, DrPaul Smile What an interesting question!

On Jul 11, 2008, aTOMiC wrote:
If it is never mentioned in the text, then I suppose the ONLY evidence would be the number of quarters set aside for the Lords. I'd have to go back and find the description to see if SRD calls out the exact number for doors (I'm sure other accommodations might be made if there were more Lords than chambers but something tells be the number wouldn't exceed the alloted rooms). I've asked others and the number 9 has been offered. That could be. Or perhaps 12. I'll try to pull out my books this weekend and have a look.


Sorry TOM, I beat you to it! Wink

In The Illearth War, Chapter SIX: The High Lord, SRD wrote:
Only after he became accustomed to the touch of the floor did he notice that there were doors widely spaced around the courtyard. He counted fifteen. Bloodguard sentries stood at nine of them....


I'm actually surprised that SRD stated an exact number and not something like "at least a dozen" considering he "didn't need" 15. (At least I don't think there were any references to a "maximum" number of Lords in the Old days.)

And it would seem that there are no other levels, either. Just balconies.

Quote:
At intervals up the walls were railed coigns with doors behind them which provided access to the open space above the courtyard.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant, SG.

However:

In the Gradual Interview, Stephen R Donaldson never wrote:
I had always intended that there would be restrooms behind two of the doors in the Courtyard. *shrug*
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having thought some more about this topic, we find that in the 40 years that elapse between LFB and TIW, eight new Lords have been admitted to the Council - Elena, Verement, Shetra, Hyrim, Callindrill, Trevor, Loerya, Amatin. We are not told whether others have been admitted and have either retired (highly unlikely as they would be younger than Mhoram) or died prematurely (not unlikely given the risks that the Lords took as part of their work, but one imagines that such former Lords might be mentioned in TIW).

If we assume that the eight Lords mentioned are the only ones to have been admitted, that means that new Lords to the Council were admitted at a rate of one every five years. We also find in TPTP that no new Lords have been admitted in the seven years since TIW, even though the Lords who survived TIW would undoubtedly have wanted to replace at least some of those who did not.

What this points to is that attaining the mastery of both Staff-lore and sword-lore required for Lordship is no easy challenge, and one which only a relatively small number of people alive at any particular time will have surmounted.

Turning once more to the Lords' mindmeld, this is not a natural ability like the mental communication shared by the Haruchai, but is a capacity that the Lords presumably acquire through Lore. As such, it may well be something that becomes more difficult to achieve and sustain as the size of the group attempting it increases.

Therefore the upper limit to the number of Lords that we might expect to find on the Council in the First Chronicles may be set by these factors. On the other hand it may also have been a conscious policy that the Council of Lords would be most effective if it was a small, close-knit group of people who were able to get to know each other very well and achieve high levels of mutual trust and friendship. We certainly see several displays of mutual concern and affection between the Lords, even when they are not married or related by blood.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have opined in the past that the Meld is an extension and projection of health-sense, and is, in fact a mutually-voluntary, benign application of the self-same power that Linden believes is "possession".

Consider the times that Linden invoked it with Thomas, where they essentially appear to each other and can converse in the in-mind state.

In the First Chronicles, most of the time we only see Lords in meld from the outside, or hear about it in conversation after the fact. However, there is one instance, where Elena attempts to meld with Covenant, that we get a description of what he is experiencing. I don't have the book immediately to hand, but I seem to recall that he felt like a presence was forming inside of his head. Had Covenant not actively rejected the meld, I suspect we would have been treated to a very similar experience to what Linden did in the 2nd Chronicles.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the number of Lords, I think it is simply that the task of becoming a Lord is so onerous, that so few measure up that they simply don't overflow the chamber. It is also possible that, IIRC, since Berek was also a seer, when they were designing Revelstone he could project that they would not need more than 15 chambers...
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