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Power levels: Beings and Objects
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Power levels: Beings and Objects Reply with quote

The main theme of the Chronicles has always been that raw power is never enough to solve the problem.

But there are plenty of powerful beings and objects that deserve some discussions.

Even some "who would win in a fight?" talk would be welcome here.

Here are some of my thoughts.


Wild Magic.
This should be at the top of the list.
What can "beat" Wild Magic and not destroy the Arch?
Nothing right?
Maybe.
Not the Illearth Stone or the Staff of Law but the Banefire sure did.
Does that mean that the Banefire was more powerful than WM with that caveat?
Saying that ordinary water ended up snuffing out the Banefire doesn't count because the Raver focusing the flame with the Master Ruhk was gone at that point.
I'm sure you're thinking that WM could have snuffed it out at the cost of the Arch but if the Arch is destroyed is it really a win for WM?

Does WM even exist in the universe outside the Arch?
Foul seemed to think that with it he could use it against the Creator.
How so?
If the Creator can use it in his creations like some kind of additive to cement why would he fear it in anyway?

Could WM "beat" the Worm?
Findail said that such a battle would break the Arch ("rive it to rubble" I believe he said) but he left open whether or not TC could win such a battle even with WM.
Indeed, depending on which creation story you follow the Worm could easily surpass any use of the WM against it.

(Does the Elohim creation story even mention the Arch? I find that interesting if it doesn't.)

The Kemper, was unbeatable against WM with his bands of gold. Does that mean he was more powerful than WM?
He wasn't all powerful, as we saw at the end, but clearly Wild Magic, the power that we all assume would be unbeatable, was useless.
I know that goes with the theme but I want to talk about the physical power levels being used in the Chronicles and not the moral or ethical stuff.

Foul, though the chief bad guy in the Chronicles has never been shown to possess any personal power that I'm aware of.
He was a Lord, but what does that mean? Did he possess the same powers as a Lord? How did he learn what to do? He possesses vast knowledge. Would that and being beyond any ability to be tested be enough for Kevin? I think it might have. Did Foul show up one day as an adult of great "power" or was his deception even more cunning, perhaps as a boy who grew up amongst the Lords? We have no way of knowing yet.
Dead Elena and Drool changed the color of the Moon, I believe, not Foul.
In the final confrontation in the PtP once Foul was separated from the Illearth Stone the fight was over, didn't he possess any power within himself to battle on? Maybe not.
The only "power" ever explained was influencing TC's mind, in tPtP, to try to "buy his soul" with gifts of health and power.
Also in the WL his presence and power of compulsion was again apparent from TC's reaction when standing before him and Foul was asking for the Ring.
So he has strong mental powers that helps him make others do the "work".
Although that's significant it's hardly up there with the Banefire or doing anything that the Ravers did with an Illearth fragment.
Breaking fragments off the Illearth Stone and creating the Sunbane could be argued to be examples of massive amounts of personal power but if so it's not explained how he did it very well to make that case.
Even the Sunbane seemed independent from Foul after the initial corruption. When TC and Linden met Foul under MT Thunder he wasn't wielding the "power of the Sunbane" or being augmented by it or even drawing strength from it!
It was just him.



Sandgorgon vs Haruchai.
Would there have been any condition's where the two Haruchai could have beat Nom?
The sand on the ground the the Sandhold wall were working against the Haruchai.
It seemed that Ceer(?) found a weakness with his neck hold.
Would it have worked or would the Haruchai have just gotten too tired eventually?
Which begs the question, could two Bloodguard (who do not get tired) beat a sandgorgon in combat?
I think so, eventually.

That's it for now, I'll have more later.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Power levels: Beings and Objects Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Wild Magic.
This should be at the top of the list.
What can "beat" Wild Magic and not destroy the Arch?
Nothing right?
Maybe.
Not the Illearth Stone or the Staff of Law but the Banefire sure did.
Does that mean that the Banefire was more powerful than WM with that caveat?
Saying that ordinary water ended up snuffing out the Banefire doesn't count because the Raver focusing the flame with the Master Ruhk was gone at that point.
I'm sure you're thinking that WM could have snuffed it out at the cost of the Arch but if the Arch is destroyed is it really a win for WM?


IIRC, TC didn't enter the Banefire with the intention of extinguishing it... at least, Linden didn't believe that he did, and wasn't the story being told from her perspective at that point?

At least, the impression I got from it was that TC was actually surprised to survive.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Power levels: Beings and Objects Reply with quote

Rigel wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Wild Magic.
This should be at the top of the list.
What can "beat" Wild Magic and not destroy the Arch?
Nothing right?
Maybe.
Not the Illearth Stone or the Staff of Law but the Banefire sure did.
Does that mean that the Banefire was more powerful than WM with that caveat?
Saying that ordinary water ended up snuffing out the Banefire doesn't count because the Raver focusing the flame with the Master Ruhk was gone at that point.
I'm sure you're thinking that WM could have snuffed it out at the cost of the Arch but if the Arch is destroyed is it really a win for WM?


IIRC, TC didn't enter the Banefire with the intention of extinguishing it... at least, Linden didn't believe that he did, and wasn't the story being told from her perspective at that point?

At least, the impression I got from it was that TC was actually surprised to survive.


I'm talking about his battle with the Raver.
The Raver was focusing pure Banefire.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BaneFire was not the source of Gibbon's power; the Sunbane was.

The BaneFire was the world's largest mechanism for drawing off the power of the Sunbane. It was the same ritual as the one Sunder and Hollian used, except on a larger scale.

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
"I've seen the master-rukh. Now tell me how it works. How you fight the Sunbane."

"By drawing its power from it," she answered simply. "If more water is taken from a lake than its springs provide, the lake will be emptied. Thus we resist the Sunbane.

"When the Mhoram first created the Banefire, it was a small thing, and accomplished little. But the Clave has increased it generation after generation, striving for the day when sufficient power would be consumed to halt the advance of the Sunbane."

Covenant fumbled mentally, then asked, "What do you do with all this power? It's got to go somewhere."

"Indeed. We have much use for power, to strengthen the Clave and continue our work."

This power could then be channeled through the rukhs.

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
That night, Memla explained her line somewhat. Her rukh, she said, drew on the great Banefire in Revelstone, where the Clave did its work against the Sunbane, and the Readers tended the master-rukh. Only the power for the link to the master-rukh came from her; the rest she siphoned from the Banefire.


Therefore, Gibbon raver's power came not from the Banefire, but from the Sunbane. The Banefire was a ritual which drew down the power of the Sunbane, and deliver it to a rukh-weilder, but it is not the source of the power.

Which is why it could be easily destroyed, while Gibbon weilding the rukh could not be. With no one to tend the Banefire, it can be snuffed out relatively easily. In fact, it probably would have gone out eventually, if it was fed no more blood.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend, I've read your post 3 times and your own quotes seem to contradict what you are saying.

The power to the Raver's rukh flows from the Sunbane > Banefire > master-rukh.

So no Banefire means no power for the rukhs.

What am I missing?

The Raver was at his most powerful in WGW because he had shed the blood of most of the people of the Land and the Banefire was at it's strongest.

I read that chapter as TC couldn't beat the Raver because it would have taken more WM that could have been contained by the Arch.
So if the Raver was getting his power from the Banefire........

I'm not splitting hairs.
I understand that you're saying that the Banefire's source is the Sunbane but I'm saying that the Banefire is by itself a powerful "object" that can be increased or decreased in power or if only as a focusing lense.
Following that logic the Krill would only be regarded as a dull edged sword.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
The power to the Raver's rukh flows from the Sunbane > Banefire > master-rukh.

So no Banefire means no power for the rukhs.

What am I missing?

I don't see anything missing.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
The Raver was at his most powerful in WGW because he had shed the blood of most of the people of the Land and the Banefire was at it's strongest.

I agree. But the Banefire at its strongest means that it is drawing the most power off the Sunbane, too.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I understand that you're saying that the Banefire's source is the Sunbane but I'm saying that the Banefire is by itself a powerful "object" that can be increased or decreased in power or if only as a focusing lense.

Yep. And it's complicated because it's later found that the Banefire actually feeds the Sunbane, too.

So, I would say, the Banefire has lots of power, but it's power is directed at feeding the Sunbane and keeping the channel open. It feeds it slowly, a little at a time over a long period.

But also power can flow the other way, from the Sunbane to the Banefire and to the rukhs, over that same open channel. This power is great for a brief period when it is drawn.

This is what Gibbon weilded.

I know my explanation is complicated. But I believe that Sunder and Hollian really do weild the power of the Sunbane when they shed blood. Therefore, the Banefire has to be similar - its shedding a whole lot of blood, the same thing on a bigger scale.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Following that logic the Krill would only be regarded as a dull edged sword.

Now I'm lost.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always assumed that the rituals that fed the Sunbane/performed Earthpower-esque effects worked by giving some power, in the form of blood, to the Sunbane. The Sunbane then took that power into itself and the Graveler/Eh-Brand was able to utilize part of that power. I need an example:
Let's say that a single cut would provide the Sunbane with 1 PU(Power Unit). When the cut is made, the Sunbane gains that 1 PU, and the Graveler/Eh-Brand who supplied the unit was able to draw up to (let's say) .95 PU and focus/wield it using his Orcrest/whatever Eh-Brands used. Thus, over a long period of time, the Sunbane would slowly grow in power.
The Banefire would work on a larger scale, but on the same general principle. And using Ruhks/the Master Ruhk to focus/wield the power
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't understand how the sunbane could have held it own against the wild magic. The only possible way Covenant was ineffective against it was because he was envenomed. He would have drawn so much wild magic that it would break the Arch and thus ending everything.

On top of that it just took good old Glimmermere water to put it out. So so pure old fashion Earthpower water put out a force, created and substained from a corrupted source of Earthpower.

So pure essence of earthpower overwhelms the foul and corrupted version.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Following that logic the Krill would only be regarded as a dull edged sword.

Now I'm lost.


You seem to be saying that by itself the Banefire is not an instrument of power because it's power source is outside itself.
Neither is the Krill with that definition.
Until someone focuses power through the Krill it's just a dull edged sword.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that the Banefire is an instrument of power, but the power it produces goes towards opening a channel to the sunbane.

Memla said, "Only the power for the link to the master-rukh came from her; the rest she siphoned from the Banefire."

You could probably say the same thing about the Banefire: only the power for the link to the Sunbane came from the Banefire; the rest is siphoned from the Sunbane.

Your opinion may differ.

The krill, white gold, lords staves, fall into a different category. They are "instruments of articulation". The power, when you weild them, comes from yourself. The power inherent in the object itself goes towards making that possible.

So, for example, Linden speaks of the krill as the only thing strong enough to support someone weilding earthpower and wild magic at the same time. The krill has the power to open the way; its the most powerful way-opener that there is, in fact. But the power weilded when you use it is your own. When Mhoram slew the raver, it was his own power, increased by the secret of the Ritual, that he used. But the krill made it possible because it was stronger at way-opening than his staff.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Picking up on a couple of other points from HLT's original post:

Quote:
The Kemper, was unbeatable against WM with his bands of gold. Does that mean he was more powerful than WM?
He wasn't all powerful, as we saw at the end, but clearly Wild Magic, the power that we all assume would be unbeatable, was useless.

I don't remember that the Kemper was unbeatable, nor that the WM was useless. TC was under the Elohim's stasis and unable to do anything.

Quote:
Foul, though the chief bad guy in the Chronicles has never been shown to possess any personal power that I'm aware of.
He was a Lord, but what does that mean? Did he possess the same powers as a Lord? How did he learn what to do? He possesses vast knowledge. Would that and being beyond any ability to be tested be enough for Kevin? I think it might have. Did Foul show up one day as an adult of great "power" or was his deception even more cunning, perhaps as a boy who grew up amongst the Lords? We have no way of knowing yet.
Dead Elena and Drool changed the color of the Moon, I believe, not Foul.
In the final confrontation in the PtP once Foul was separated from the Illearth Stone the fight was over, didn't he possess any power within himself to battle on? Maybe not.
The only "power" ever explained was influencing TC's mind, in tPtP, to try to "buy his soul" with gifts of health and power.

Good points. We could assume that to become a Lord, Foul had to be the "master of Staff and Sword" like all others... but maybe not. Earthpower may be so anathema to him that he could not actually wield it. But then, as you ask, how could he become accepted by the Lords? Thru such subtle and cunning manipulation? Quite possible.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relayer wrote:

I don't remember that the Kemper was unbeatable, nor that the WM was useless. TC was under the Elohim's stasis and unable to do anything.


Not at that time - Linden had released Covenant, he had his confrontation with Nom THEN confronted the Kemper. Kasreyn was able to absorb the wild magic through the gold loops and then directed them back at Covenant.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relayer wrote:
Picking up on a couple of other points from HLT's original post:

Quote:
The Kemper, was unbeatable against WM with his bands of gold. Does that mean he was more powerful than WM?
He wasn't all powerful, as we saw at the end, but clearly Wild Magic, the power that we all assume would be unbeatable, was useless.

I don't remember that the Kemper was unbeatable, nor that the WM was useless. TC was under the Elohim's stasis and unable to do anything.



No, remember when he actually fought him and all the WM TC tossed at the Kemper was caught in the Kemper's bands of yellow gold?
TC couldn't beat him with WM.
So.....does that mean he was more powerful then WM (in a comic book sense)?

Quote:
Foul, though the chief bad guy in the Chronicles has never been shown to possess any personal power that I'm aware of.
He was a Lord, but what does that mean? Did he possess the same powers as a Lord? How did he learn what to do? He possesses vast knowledge. Would that and being beyond any ability to be tested be enough for Kevin? I think it might have. Did Foul show up one day as an adult of great "power" or was his deception even more cunning, perhaps as a boy who grew up amongst the Lords? We have no way of knowing yet.
Dead Elena and Drool changed the color of the Moon, I believe, not Foul.
In the final confrontation in the PtP once Foul was separated from the Illearth Stone the fight was over, didn't he possess any power within himself to battle on? Maybe not.
The only "power" ever explained was influencing TC's mind, in tPtP, to try to "buy his soul" with gifts of health and power.

Good points. We could assume that to become a Lord, Foul had to be the "master of Staff and Sword" like all others... but maybe not. Earthpower may be so anathema to him that he could not actually wield it. But then, as you ask, how could he become accepted by the Lords? Thru such subtle and cunning manipulation? Quite possible.[/quote]

I think it's been established that beings from beyond creation like Foul surpass any Test of Truth by Earth Power
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: WM vs WM Reply with quote

It seems to me that the fight between TC and the Kemper is a fight of WM against WM. The Kemper's talents allow him not to defeat white gold but to harness it and use against the wielder. I feel the Kemper is correct to believe that he has a greater knowledge of how to use such power than TC does...therefore his disdain of TC. Defeating TC and defeating WM are different things.

Whether the Kemper could actually survive TC's upcoming eruption when the magnified WM was released by the Kemper is another question. I believe that the Kemper's ego is in the way here. Findail certainly does not think so in that moment and is certain that the Earth is at hazard...hence his willingness to intercede.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
No, remember when he actually fought him and all the WM TC tossed at the Kemper was caught in the Kemper's bands of yellow gold?
TC couldn't beat him with WM.

Must. Reread...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relayer wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
No, remember when he actually fought him and all the WM TC tossed at the Kemper was caught in the Kemper's bands of yellow gold?
TC couldn't beat him with WM.

Must. Reread...


Yeah he caught the wild magic with his stupid chair. And Findail claimed that the battle between Covenant and Kasreyn would endanger the arch. But frankly Findail was like a little old lady when it came to the wild magic.

He didn't want Covenant to *ever* use his power. He'd probably have pitched a fit if TC had used it to shave with like at Revelstone.

"No!! Searing your facial hair off places the very Arch of Time in jeopardy!!"

In all likelihood, Covenant would have eventually overloaded Kasreyn's ridiculous contraption and burned the Kemper and his bloodsucking little buddy to ashes where they sat, as he threatened to do.

But getting Findail to act was quicker and more convenient.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one ever replied to me! Must mean I'm right? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Haruchai/Sandgorgon battle is an interesting thing to bring up, because I do think two Haruchai could take down a Sandgorgon under the right circumstances. The awesome thing about the Haruchai is that despite the fact that they have no power, they always seem to figure out a way to win, or at least come close. Such as when they fought the Harrow and were getting nowhere until they realized they should go for the eyes.

The reason Nom got out of the chokehold was because he still had the leverage to slam Ceer against the wall. If Hergrom had not already been disabled, he probably would have taken Nom's feet out from under him, which would allow Ceer to pull back and have Nom on his back where he'd have no leverage. Game over. Biggest upset since Douglas-Tyson.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

francois60 wrote:
The Haruchai/Sandgorgon battle is an interesting thing to bring up, because I do think two Haruchai could take down a Sandgorgon under the right circumstances.

The reason Nom got out of the chokehold was because he still had the leverage to slam Ceer against the wall. If Hergrom had not already been disabled, he probably would have taken Nom's feet out from under him, which would allow Ceer to pull back and have Nom on his back where he'd have no leverage. Game over. Biggest upset since Douglas-Tyson.


I agree with you, the fact that they *almost* beat Nom is amazing.

And I'd like to reiterate that I have no respect whatsoever for Kasreyn and his ludicrous chair. I've met people in real life who say he could have beaten Covenant. I say "no way!" Let me explain.

While he could capture TC's wild magic, and toss it back, TC never really tried to overpower him. There is no way his hoops of gold (note: BASE gold, not White Gold) could have handled the amounts of power TC was capable of drawing and using.

Findail freaked out about reaving the arch, but as I said Findail was like a little old lady when it came to the White Gold. A real nervous Nellie.

Covenant at one point threatened to burn Kasreyn to cinders, and there is nothing in my opinion that argues against his ability to do just that, and nothing the croyel has done in the Last Chronicles makes me think that one of those little bloodsuckers could last more than a few moments against the wild magic.

If it shattered the Illearth Stone, it would shatter the Kemper's laughable gold hoop seat.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
francois60 wrote:
The Haruchai/Sandgorgon battle is an interesting thing to bring up, because I do think two Haruchai could take down a Sandgorgon under the right circumstances.

The reason Nom got out of the chokehold was because he still had the leverage to slam Ceer against the wall. If Hergrom had not already been disabled, he probably would have taken Nom's feet out from under him, which would allow Ceer to pull back and have Nom on his back where he'd have no leverage. Game over. Biggest upset since Douglas-Tyson.


I agree with you, the fact that they *almost* beat Nom is amazing.

And I'd like to reiterate that I have no respect whatsoever for Kasreyn and his ludicrous chair. I've met people in real life who say he could have beaten Covenant. I say "no way!" Let me explain.

While he could capture TC's wild magic, and toss it back, TC never really tried to overpower him. There is no way his hoops of gold (note: BASE gold, not White Gold) could have handled the amounts of power TC was capable of drawing and using.

Findail freaked out about reaving the arch, but as I said Findail was like a little old lady when it came to the White Gold. A real nervous Nellie.

Covenant at one point threatened to burn Kasreyn to cinders, and there is nothing in my opinion that argues against his ability to do just that, and nothing the croyel has done in the Last Chronicles makes me think that one of those little bloodsuckers could last more than a few moments against the wild magic.

If it shattered the Illearth Stone, it would shatter the Kemper's laughable gold hoop seat.


The point of that scene was that Covenant was losing control over his power, just like he almost did at the Tree, Revelstone, and against those ice demons. Supposing the rings would have eventually melted. Remember what happened at the end of tPtP. Kemper's Keep would melt long before Covenant won with substantial parts of the surrounding city suffering dever damage and countless lives would be lost. Would Covenant be able to stomach that amount of collateral damage? As it was he annihilated the two top levels of the Keep.

But Kemper's the man. He worked very hard to keep his own hide. If he was confident his golden chair could beat Covenant's White Gold ring I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Remember his other accomplishments: Gorgon's Doom, almost eternal youth, Creation of new life, some sort of teleporting portals in his Keep. What Kemper had was superior knowledge and self control. Look how easily the Harrow beat the Demondim and Staff+Ring+Rage Linden with his superior knowledge. He was well prepared for this conflict, he knew what he was doing. It's not inconceivable that he arranged for that terrible storm to happen so the Giants would have to come to his port for repairs or at the very least foresaw their coming. And of course, Kemper doesn't need to beat the White Gold Ring, he just needs to beat Covenant. The White Gold is strong but the flesh is weak...
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