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Was saving the Giants possible?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:10 am    Post subject: Was saving the Giants possible? Reply with quote

I'm wondering if Lord Hyrim and the bloodguard had managed to beat Kinslaughterer to Coercri, would they have had success convincing any of the Giants to resist or perhaps defeat the Giant-Raver before he could destroy his people?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah! puny lords and bloodguard are no match for me.. I mean a Giant-Raver.

Seriously, I think they could've made a difference. I don't know in what way but they were responsible for killing him after all.

Ponder this, what would have happened if Covenant would have accepted Hyrim's offer to ride along?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oooo...way cool thought. I always wondered that too. Or if Foamfollower hadn't left in grief at their submission and stayed to fight?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question is of course rhetoricial but still deserves looking into.
Foul had planned things so well that he knew that it would be far too late for the Lords to do anything. It is possible that while Foamfollower was just arriving at Revelstone that he had his Ravers descend upon Coercri to take posession of the triplets.
Foamfollower admitted to the Giant's pride at one point (quote help needed here) that they the Unhomed saw that they could be so easily mastered gave up completely and allowed themselves to be slaughtered. They waited for generations upon generations for their "seed to regain it's potency" and now their hope of children and going home finally were shattered. They, like the Bloodguard thought they were strong enough to resist but were not. The illearth stone was something that neither race had taken into account. The Ravers could have not violated so easily.
Kinslaughterer was done in by a concerted attack by the Bloodguard and ONLY after the Giant/Raver was temporarily distracted. The three hit him bodily so fast so hard that the impact killed the body.
Strategically had the giants lent a hand in TIW and the battle(s) TPTP they would've made a faster victory. But again they had Giant/Ravers to battle against. Think upon that and be dismayed!
Dispair was Foul's most potent weapon. Hence the message filled with contempt and assurance of victory.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's an interesting thing to consider, but Hyrim and the Bloodguard arrived too late, getting bogged down in the Sarangrave and all. Had they arrived in time, they would have made a difference, I'm sure. (I mean, that was the purpose of the mission, find out why the Giants fell silent, and help if needed.(Why did they stay silent for so long, I wonder?)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that it could never have happened based upon something a little different. Namely, the possibility of the Land being only Covenant's dream. Foamfollower was arguably Covenant's closest friend in the Land, so it follows that his people were doomed to die horribly at the behest of Lord Foul, because that's consistent with how Covenant believed his dream worked.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with that.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay let me first say for the record that I agree that in the context of the story as written the giants were doomed. No change in plan or inspired decision on the part of the people of the Land would have saved them. This is a purely “What if” situation. I’m sure there are more than one of you out there that were hoping (no matter how futile it may have been) that Hyrim might have arrived in time save somebody, anybody. As it was Hyrim did manage find at least one Giant and that one managed to rouse himself enough to confront his Giant/Raver son. Here is the scenario I envision regarding the question I have posed: Hyrim arrives perhaps scant moments before Kinslaughterer. The Giants have made their choice and are in the midst of preparing themselves and their homes for “departure”. Given that the Giant/Raver’s father (someone who above all else may have had the worst guilt regarding his son) managed to fight the urge toward suicide, I suspect Lord Hyrim and the bloodguard might have rallied other giants to defend themselves. And in so doing, perhaps defeat Kinslaughterer, gather new strength for the defense of the land and alter the outcome of what transpired afterward. In regard to dAN's comment I don't disagree but the Land has been established as real at least from a certain perspective.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clearfrontier is right: the story dictated that the Giants die, and
the Bloodguard break their Oath. It was preordained by the
author.

That being said ...

It was stated by the Giant-Ravers' father that a few of the Giants
fled rather than agree to die at the hands of the Giant-Raver, but
that the Saranagrave got them. So I think that even if they had
tried to fight, the Giant-Raver would have been able to overcome
them in some fashion or the other.

And I have to say that I kind of wish that Covenant's caamora in
The Grieve had freed the spirit of the Giant-Raver as well. He didn't
ask to be taken over by a Raver ... why couldn't he be given healing
as well?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seafoam Understone wrote:
Foamfollower admitted to the Giant's pride at one point (quote help needed here)
At your service, citizen. For I am Quote King!! Somewhat amusingly, it's from The Spoiled Plains:
Quote:
"Ah, Covenant, how can I tell you of it? This tongue has no words long enough for the tale. No word can encompass the love for a lost homeland, or the anguish of diminishing seed, or the pride – the pride in fidelity – That fidelity was our only reply to our extinction. We could not have borne our decline if we had not taken pride."



KaosArcana wrote:
And I have to say that I kind of wish that Covenant's caamora in The Grieve had freed the spirit of the Giant-Raver as well. He didn't ask to be taken over by a Raver ... why couldn't he be given healing as well?
Shocked Shocked I never thought of that!! I guess Covenant didn't either, and only thought of him as the Raver. What a very sad thing you've brought up! Sad


Regarding clearfrontier's original idea, I'll tell you why I think it would have made a HUGE difference. As a group, the Unhomed were lost to themselves. They looked to each other, and saw only what he/she felt. Just a bunch of mirrors, reinforcing each others' horror and pain and loss. When Foamfollower came to them, he was only a single Giant. An abberation. They dismissed him and his unique attitude with a sad shake of their head. Some may have said, "You cannot know. You are too young." Others, "You are too human. Short names come to easy for you." Whatever the reason, they all had a reason to ignore him. He was just a Giant who could not see that hope was lost.

But the Bloodguard!! Had they been there before Kinslaughterer, the Giants would have seen how they had fallen. Even if the Bloodguard didn't speak a word, the Giants would have seen strength. They would have seen people who do not give up and die. And they would have remembered themselves.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohh...the Giant Raver turned and left the Grieve as the dead where going towards the caamora. It chose not to participate. Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Giant-Raver tried to pursue them. But the breaking of their eternal round seemed to break also his hold over them, break the spell of his maleficent glee. His form frayed as he moved, blurred until he was only a tingling green smear of memory across The Grieve - until he faded into the night, and was lost.
I'd think Covenant could have reached in and pulled the Giant triplet out, and given him the caamora. If he had thought of it. But it's too easy to just think of him as the Raver.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the original second part of TIW is lost, we don't know that much about Hyrim or Korik, but I think that between them they could have perasuaded the giants. Hyrim almost persuaded TC to accompany him, and he seemed to have something extra inside, despite his humourous exterior, that reared its head when the chips were down.

I think that had the company gone around the Sarangrave, or had they managed to get through it, then Kinslaughterer would have been knee deep in it when he arrived. I for one wouldn't want to face Hyrim and Korik, let alone the giants if they could be roused, and Shetra if she had have survived.

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In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Quote:
The Giant-Raver tried to pursue them. But the breaking of their eternal round seemed to break also his hold over them, break the spell of his maleficent glee. His form frayed as he moved, blurred until he was only a tingling green smear of memory across The Grieve - until he faded into the night, and was lost.
I'd think Covenant could have reached in and pulled the Giant triplet out, and given him the caamora. If he had thought of it. But it's too easy to just think of him as the Raver.


It's a noble and compassionate thought but as I read it Covenant was just as much aggrieved as the giants of the Search when he started to tell the tale and then it took over in visual form so that they could actually see the slaughter as it happened... it must've been breaking TC's heart and thus he did the only thing in his anguish that he thought to do. And something that Foamfollower said to him I recall (??) about how they died without the redemption of the caamora.
It would be safe to presume that Covenant assumed that ALL the giants including Kinslaughterer would participate in the caamora he offered. It is possible that the Giant/Raver didn't deem his soul worthy of redemption. Or the hatred felt by the Raver still burned within him, and one more that the Illearth Stone still had a hold over the spirit of the giant
Quote:
His form frayed as he moved, blurred until he was only a tingling green smear of memory


What is interesting is that the Wild Magic was seemingly the ONLY way for those spirits to achieve their long waited caamora. Was TC acting on instinct? That somehow he knew that his white-fire would do the trick?
It would seem so.
Another side note (mebbe I dont' remember) none of the Haruchai moved to stop him from walking into that fire. Did they (instinctively) know what would happen or were they just as grief strickened? Only when TC's white fire seemed to die out did Seadreamer rush through the bonfire and carry him out before he could be literally immolated.

A powerful and heart-rending (and at the same time heart-lifting) scene that the dead were redeemed after 4000+ years of dammnation<sic>.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some have said that Foul planned things that happened really well. Like he said fe would have comtrol over life and death, and Thomas giving the ring to him. But what most fail to realize is that prophecies are self-fulfilling. Seeing is not prophecy, otherwise Foul would have known that Thomas gave him the ring so that Foul could cure him of the vemon and could thereby protect the Arch of Time.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another side note (mebbe I dont' remember) none of the Haruchai moved to stop him from walking into that fire. Did they (instinctively) know what would happen or were they just as grief strickened? Only when TC's white fire seemed to die out did Seadreamer rush through the bonfire and carry him out before he could be literally immolated.


Bannor had taught his people everything he could about the Land and about TC. I think that Brinn and the others had a very good idea of what was about to happen...
Bannor is one of the most important links of continuity between the First and Second Chrons...The Wounded Land was an incredibly painful book for me to read until the hauchai enter the story - the first people of the Land who actually know the truth of the Beauty of the past...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I of course could also imagine what the Giants feared the most. Giant-Ravers with a backup supply of enslaved Giants held in reserve in the event the physical form of the possessed Giant was destroyed another could be brought to bear quickly. If this were the case then the Ravers would have been empowered to be even more reckless and destructive since the fear of losing their imposing host would have been removed.

I would have preferred that the Giants escaped to the sea somehow but their mass suicide was probably the only resolution to the issue as it turns out.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, I don't think that you're too far off the mark. The Giant's considered their stature to be their strength. And "stature" implied not only physical greatness, but greatness of heart, greatness of spirit, greatness of loyalty.

Lord Foul demonstrated that their physical greatness could be wielded against the Land. Which also served to undermine all of the other aspects of their stature. They had become Foul's perfect weapon, the perfect Enemy of the Land -- because of who they were.

Thus, they had little choice. They could only be who they were, and they didn't want to be that any more.

Hyrim may have broken their solemn silence while they uttered their last act. But he could not prevent it, IMO.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing counterfactual fantasy is an interesting concept. Confused

That said, the key question becomes what would have happened if the Giants had been able to resist Kinslaughterer and to contribute to the defence of the Land, and if Foamfollower had been fighting alongside them rather than being a guerilla fighter with Triock and Bannor in TPTP and thus being able to (a) contribute to Covenant's final summoning and (b) accompany him to Ridleck Thome. I don't think it's drawing too long a bow to suggest that Lord Foul's purely military resources would have enabled him to ultimately grind down all opposition, even if that opposition had included Giants and Bloodguard, had Covenant not been able eventually to confront and defeat him.
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