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The "New" Giants
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
He hasn't had time to develop them as characters.

I don't agree with that. The Search Giants were introduced with four chapters left in TWL. The Swordmainir of FR at just about the same time. And yet I think TWL did more to portray it's Giant's, and more deeply, than FR did. I'll grant you that the storyline at the end of TWL was more Giant-centric (with the Grieve and things). But I felt more for Pitchwife as we emerged from Giantwoods than I do about Frostheart Grueburn now.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead... you just blew my mind! After all the scenarios I had thought of as far as Longwraths reason for trying to kill Linden, it had never occurred to me that he might be mistaken in the target of his animosity and rage.But, did I read somewhere that Joan is being tended to by the acid creatures, and I thought it was at a coastal location...I need to re read that in... Runes..I think...and if so, then Longwrath should have made a beeline to Joan. Ah, hell I m confusing myself.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason we don't know these giants very well is that there were so many of them introduced at the same time. We haven't (yet) really had the one-on-one experience it takes to form an identity association.

All previous giant introductions were gradual. In 1st Chron, we only met Foamfollower. In the second, we first met a small party containing the First, Pitchwife, Honniscrave and Seadreamer, and we pretty much stayed with that team for a long time. Once we got the Ship, we were introduced to other giants gradually, and many not at all. Even so, Galewrath and Mistweave are the only later ones that really stick out in my mind.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hearthrall antonicus wrote:
Ur Dead... you just blew my mind! After all the scenarios I had thought of as far as Longwraths reason for trying to kill Linden, it had never occurred to me that he might be mistaken in the target of his animosity and rage.But, did I read somewhere that Joan is being tended to by the acid creatures, and I thought it was at a coastal location...I need to re read that in... Runes..I think...and if so, then Longwrath should have made a beeline to Joan. Ah, hell I m confusing myself.


Assuming that the real threat is Joan.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting that the Giants say that Longwrath's obsession to locate and kill "her" isn't genuine Earthsight and that they are not on an "official" search.

As if Giantish Earthsight were a similar phenomenon to Sainthood that must be verified and endorsed by some Vatican-like Giantclave before it's recognized as such.
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe among Giants true Earthsight is "I know it when I see it", and not every type of vision or geas qualifies.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what quantifies genuine Earthsight? Do they(the Giants) sit and debate at length about the "symptoms", and then set up action plans for the issue. After all, I think the only person we know who had the Earthsight was Seadreamer. He was basically not an angry guy, more troubled and miserable than the insane Longwrath we are being shown.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
"His recovery was slow and arduous, and even in delirancy he did not speak. Remembering Cable Seadreamer, whose gift or affliction of Earth-Sight resulted from a similar wound, and who was rendered mute by visions, we considered that perhaps Exalt Widenedworld would also display signs of Earth-Sight. But he did not. Rather he arose one day from his bed, seemingly without cause or alteration, and announced his intention to 'slay' some nameless 'her.' Then he struck down or forced aside the Giants tending him and hastened toward our harborage, apparently seeking a vessel to bear him."

That's the only passing reference that I could find which might explain why the Giant's don't think Longwrath had Earth-Sight. If I had to deduce from this, I would say that they expect someone with true Earth-Sight to share a vision with other Giants, lead them on a Quest to accomplish something in the name of the Earth's service.

Quote:
"Though Earth-Sight occurs seldom among us, it has never taken the form of murderous rage."

The text supports the idea that the Giants are now not sure if Longwrath has Earth-Sight or not. I think the idea that "murderous rage" is an expression of an Earth-serving vision is hard for them to adjust to. And, by luring the other Giant's after him like a lodestone, he seems to be fulfilling all the conditions of leading a Quest.

But could Longwrath be mistaking Linden for Joan? That I'd need some more evidence to believe. Visions may be misinterpreted, but they aren't plain old wrong, not if they are granted by the Earth itself.

I'm still holding on to the theory that there is something of the Earth that is not letting go. Something that is fighting an End which is necessary and just. Linden is part of that End.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Delirancy"?

Quite the coinage.

-----

If Earthsight is as rare as they claim (which I don't doubt), its manifesting as "murderous rage" can't so easily be discounted.

-----

This situation is disturbingly akin to the quest for the One Tree, except that, while Seadreamer was certain it would lead to disaster, he made no overt effort to prevent it. Longwrath seems to take the opposite stance and is willing to kill to stop something terrible from going down.

Perhaps he wishes to spare us readers from the rigors of another stupefyingly boring sea voyage? Razz
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see this as very complicated. Lord Foul helped Linden at the very beginning of this tetralogy as if she were his ally. Of course that makes her a threat, if not the main threat.



wayfriend wrote:
In Fatal Revenant was wrote:
"His recovery was slow and arduous, and even in delirancy he did not speak. Remembering Cable Seadreamer, whose gift or affliction of Earth-Sight resulted from a similar wound, and who was rendered mute by visions, we considered that perhaps Exalt Widenedworld would also display signs of Earth-Sight. But he did not. Rather he arose one day from his bed, seemingly without cause or alteration, and announced his intention to 'slay' some nameless 'her.' Then he struck down or forced aside the Giants tending him and hastened toward our harborage, apparently seeking a vessel to bear him."

That's the only passing reference that I could find which might explain why the Giant's don't think Longwrath had Earth-Sight. If I had to deduce from this, I would say that they expect someone with true Earth-Sight to share a vision with other Giants, lead them on a Quest to accomplish something in the name of the Earth's service.

Quote:
"Though Earth-Sight occurs seldom among us, it has never taken the form of murderous rage."

The text supports the idea that the Giants are now not sure if Longwrath has Earth-Sight or not. I think the idea that "murderous rage" is an expression of an Earth-serving vision is hard for them to adjust to. And, by luring the other Giant's after him like a lodestone, he seems to be fulfilling all the conditions of leading a Quest.

But could Longwrath be mistaking Linden for Joan? That I'd need some more evidence to believe. Visions may be misinterpreted, but they aren't plain old wrong, not if they are granted by the Earth itself.

I'm still holding on to the theory that there is something of the Earth that is not letting go. Something that is fighting an End which is necessary and just. Linden is part of that End.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Longwraths rage Reply with quote

IMO.... His rage is caused by something other than earthsight. Something evil. If it was earthsight, Seeing that earthsight is from the land, The wraiths would not have prevented him from coming into to Andelian. I also do not think he would try to hurt his own breathern. Also Ironhand specifically states that they are not being guided by earthsight. Why or How is he able to escape his manacles? Possible examples for his rage and his abilities to escape his manacles listed below:

1. One of the Elohim have touched him some way.

2. Insequents have touched him.

3. Esmer has something to do with it.

4. Kastenessen....(Longwrath does stand at the bow of the ship enroute to the land...Like Findail did.....The giants had calm weather and following seas as long as they were headed in the direction Longwrath wanted...He showed his anger when the other giants were fighting and killing the Skurj.)

I think that his rage is only for LA. Why else would he make a beeline for her instead of Joan?

Another thing.... Longwrath escaped while in Bhrathairealm and broke into the armory getting a special Kasryen wrought sword. Made for combating Sandgorgons. What is the significance of that?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The special sword may be fated to deal with Sandgorgons in the next book. Or it may only be that the mention of Sandgorgons was just in passing, as a way of explaining why a human sword was large and strong enough for a Giant. I don't think we can tell either way at this time.

The manicle-escaping power seems to be the antithesis of Jeremiah's imprisoning power. Or it may be an extension of his door-making power.

I think "rage" is a big clue. Rage always goes with certain things in the Chronicles. It's nearly always the hallmark of despair, or the Despiser, I feel.

Saltheart Foamfollower, another Giant, raged. Because he succomed to battle lust. His rage made him immune to the events at Coercri. In Saltheart, rage was indicative of a person who was, like Covenant, accepting and integrating his darker side (his inner Despiser), which in the end made him stronger.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that poor Longwrath's rage is Earth-Sight; rather, something--or someone--has implanted a type of geas on him. Also, the fact that it appears that "her" is Linden Avery is too simple--there is another "her" who threatens the Land--Joan, of course.

The fact that Longwrath is able to slip out of his restraints just like Joan does is a key to identifying the true purpose of his imposed rage.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think the new Giants don't measure up to the old simply because Donaldson didn't write them as well.

There is certainly nothing expository about any of them except Rime Coldspray and Longwrath. And there's not much of that.

How many of the giants can you name without looking?
Spoiler:
Rime Coldspray (Ironhand)
Frostheart Grueburn
Onyx Stonemage
Stormpast Galesend
Halewhole Bluntfist
Cirrus Kindwind (lost her arm)
Scend Wavegift (slain by Longwrath)
Moire Squireset (slain by skurj)
??? Cabledarm
??? Latebirth
And Exalt Widenedworld, aka Lostson Longwrath

That's how forgettable they are.


No, that's how twenty-five years time and numorous readings of the old chronicles helped remembering more names.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just another note on why these Giants may be different...

They've lost their skill with languages (Esmer's doing, if I recall). This may have something to do with why they are different.

Just a thought...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see you around, EB.

I thought that Esmer didn't retract the gift of tongues until they were battling the skirj while atop the outcropping (in order to prevent Linden from communicating with the ur-viles).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, you're probably right Wayfriend (about Esmer). I haven't really been thinking about the Chronicles for a while, but I was grabbed by this thread while browsing this morning.

And I agree that Donaldson does not seem to have taken the time to develop these Giants as much. However, he does have two more books in which to do it. I'm looking forward to it.

Perhaps if my job allows me more free time, I can get my head back in the game...it's good to be around...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Joan vs. Linden and Longwrath Reply with quote

Ur Dead,

I agree with your thoughts. It could be that he simply encountered Linden on his way to Joan. Where is Joan? If she is in Mount Thunder, he could have simply stumbled on her. Maybe Longwrath's affliction only permits him a template of the person he needs to kill.

I have two thoughts:
1) Wouldn't it be interesting if kill is not really his mission? Maybe disposing of the threat is all he knows, and, being a warrior, kill is the obvious choice. Am I missing something in the details of the story? It has been a while since I read any of this material.
2) Wouldn't it also be interesting if he is actually supposed to kill someone we have not even met yet, or if we have misunderstood the origin of the threat that he is trying to eliminate. Once again, I havent' read any of this material lately. Maybe time for a reread.

Just some wayward thinking.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we haven't had time to get to know them very well honestly. The introduction of the Giants in FR is much like the introduction of the Giants in TWL... under dire events at the very end of the novel.

And moreover I don't feel the need to "like" them the way other giants are liked. I never liked Honninscrave particularly, but I respected him as a character and could empathize with the straits he endured.

I see full evidence in the usual Giantish behaviors in the trash-talking between the Ironhand and her fellow Swordmainnir, so I fully expect the depiction of the Giants to be true to the culture. Remember that they are long-lived and far from fecund. There's no real room or reason for their culture to have changed substantially. I don't believe they are more barbaric; they are dealing with situations of extreme duress in their usual heroic manner.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The giants seem about the same to me, all things taken into account: the exigency of their not-a-Search, the unwelcome of the Masters, their long years of strain/guilt dealing with Longwrath, etc.

I don't believe for a second that anything like "the Land will be destroyed" is gonna happen.
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