Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Was Lord Foul called Lord Foul while on the Council?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CovenantJr
Eater of Sausage

Male
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 12595

Thanks: 8
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

Location: Gwynedd, North Wales
494 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Morinmoss1 New Lord1 Captains Fancy


PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop, stop now Shocked

Wink
_________________
"Tell me, young crone, is this Putney?"
"That it be, that it be."
"'Yes it is', not 'that it be'. You don't have to talk in that stupid voice to me. I'm not a tourist."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Forestal
Bloodguard


Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 871

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts

Location: Andelain
14 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

landwaster... your just being silly now Razz

very very silly Razz

fowl boy Razz lol
_________________
"Damn!!! Wildwood was unbelievably cool!!!!!" - Fist&Faith
"Yeah Forestal is the one to be bowed to!! All hail Forestal of the pantaloon intelligencia!" - Skyweir
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lord Luof
Servant of the Land


Joined: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


0 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 4:09 am    Post subject: Identity Solved Reply with quote

He was Lord Luof of course.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Forestal
Bloodguard


Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 871

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts

Location: Andelain
14 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeroth Razz

what was foul doing before the old lords then? was he not powerful enough to take on human form? or was he biding his time? or was he doing something else entirely?

i find it hard to believe that foul was doing nothing before he joined kevin's council... unless he was unable...
_________________
"Damn!!! Wildwood was unbelievably cool!!!!!" - Fist&Faith
"Yeah Forestal is the one to be bowed to!! All hail Forestal of the pantaloon intelligencia!" - Skyweir
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Zephalephelah
Banned


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 382

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

Location: USA West
0 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forestal wrote:
jeroth Razz

what was foul doing before the old lords then? was he not powerful enough to take on human form? or was he biding his time? or was he doing something else entirely?

i find it hard to believe that foul was doing nothing before he joined kevin's council... unless he was unable...


I've always believed that Lord Foul was beaten before the Old Lords and that he was learning each time that he was defeated so that the next time he comes back he is more cunning and diabolical.

As to what Lord Foul was doing before he joined the Council, we do not know. But it would be safe to assume that he did not simply arrive at Revelstone and ask to be a lord. More likely he arrived somewhere else and proved himself highly capable and news of his great lore and ability went ahead of him so that he was called to Revelstone.

It is my view that Lord Foul actually helped Kevin create the wards. He required no name for himself, no pride, no ownership of the wards since he knew all along that he would betray Kevin. It would provide him nothing to take credit and would in fact hurt his cause. But by giving Kevin all credit it would be all the more stunning to kill him with treachery even though he had all that power. Of course, Kevin was not powerless. But my take on Foul is that he came peacefully to Revelstone, an enemy disguised as a friend. For that reason alone, he would not have been called "Enemy", Lord Foul.

I think it would have been more interesting if we somehow learned that Kevin was Foul. But since Elena resurrected him that cannot be true. Still that would have been such a stunning revelation to the readers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 20036

Thanks: 69
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
6172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zephalephelah wrote:


It is my view that Lord Foul actually helped Kevin create the wards. He required no name for himself, no pride, no ownership of the wards since he knew all along that he would betray Kevin. It would provide him nothing to take credit and would in fact hurt his cause. But by giving Kevin all credit it would be all the more stunning to kill him with treachery even though he had all that power. Of course, Kevin was not powerless. But my take on Foul is that he came peacefully to Revelstone, an enemy disguised as a friend. For that reason alone, he would not have been called "Enemy", Lord Foul.

I think it would have been more interesting if we somehow learned that Kevin was Foul. But since Elena resurrected him that cannot be true. Still that would have been such a stunning revelation to the readers.


This is actually pretty interesting. As far as I know (I haven't read TLD completely) but I don't think this is supported within the published text. But there's nothing to say it couldn't be so. Big Grin
_________________
Get 'em Soaper!


Quote:
"I'm not sure why I posted in this thread. Its like dropping a balloon into a cactus farm."


"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18122

Thanks: 11
Thanked 177 Times in 164 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40249 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, Kevin didn't create the Wards until he planned to enact the Ritual, and he didn't plan that until he had been trying to destroy Foul for some time. So Foul could not have been on the Council while the Wards were created.

Foul might have helped Kevin discover new lore, which later on Kevin put into the Wards. But there's nothing to indicate that Kevin's lore was corrupted by Foul in any way. So either Foul didn't help, or his help was all above-board.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 20036

Thanks: 69
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
6172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
IIRC, Kevin didn't create the Wards until he planned to enact the Ritual, and he didn't plan that until he had been trying to destroy Foul for some time. So Foul could not have been on the Council while the Wards were created.

Foul might have helped Kevin discover new lore, which later on Kevin put into the Wards. But there's nothing to indicate that Kevin's lore was corrupted by Foul in any way. So either Foul didn't help, or his help was all above-board.


Its quite logical to assume that Kevin created the Wards specifically because he was intending to enact the ROD however its at least possible that Kevin may have begun collecting his lore in wards prior to his conflict with Foul as just a good idea in general and then decided they were perfect for use as legacy protection after he set off a thermonuclear bomb and completed them in time for the big event.

I'm not saying I believe that is how it happened I'm just pointing out that in a universe of infinite possibilities and limited facts anything is possible. Big Grin
_________________
Get 'em Soaper!


Quote:
"I'm not sure why I posted in this thread. Its like dropping a balloon into a cactus farm."


"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2831 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Kevin needed Wards when he was High Lord. The Wards were just a way to undo and hide his magic. Even if this meant hidden for ever, better than in the hands of a-Jeroth Foul, the Dark Lord, Despiser of Eardisland. Big Grin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 20036

Thanks: 69
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
6172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
I don't think Kevin needed Wards when he was High Lord. The Wards were just a way to undo and hide his magic. Even if this meant hidden for ever, better than in the hands of a-Jeroth Foul, the Dark Lord, Despiser of Cheam. Big Grin


You wouldn't say that if you have ever been an IT manager. Organizing, archiving and protecting data isn't something you slap together because a hurricane is barreling down on you. Big Grin
_________________
Get 'em Soaper!


Quote:
"I'm not sure why I posted in this thread. Its like dropping a balloon into a cactus farm."


"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Horrim Carabal
Unlikely Ally

Male
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 460

Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts

Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
258 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Courser1 Earthblood1 Glimmermere


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked SRD on the Gradual Interview and he gave an ambiguous answer, then later in the new books it was revealed he called himself a-Jeroth. Maybe I put this seed of a question in his mind! I may have influenced SRD and the Chronicles! Envy me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Thanked by: aTOMiC, Cord Hurn
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18122

Thanks: 11
Thanked 177 Times in 164 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40249 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18122

Thanks: 11
Thanked 177 Times in 164 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40249 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
IIRC, Kevin didn't create the Wards until he planned to enact the Ritual

Its quite logical to assume that Kevin created the Wards specifically because he was intending to enact the ROD however its at least possible that Kevin may have begun collecting his lore in wards prior to his conflict with Foul as just a good idea in general

I would agree with you except the Wards seem to have been designed in a way that assumes no one would be around to guide the new Lords. The way the Wards are revealed only after the prior one was mastered ... this only makes sense when there is no one around who knows what that next Ward contains. If there was, it couldn't be kept secret.

Sure, Kevin already had his lore. He didn't invent the lore when he created the Wards. He may even have recorded his lore somewhere (although that seems to be not a thing people did). But the Wards were built for a specific purpose, and Kevin wouldn't have had that purpose unless he suspected the Lords and their works were going to be wiped out to a man.

In The Illearth War was wrote:
"And he was not blind. In the awful secret of his doubt, he refused the summons which would have taken him to his death in Treacher's Gorge. In his heart-wrung foresight or prophecy, he made decisions which preserved the Land's future. He prepared his Wards. He provided for the survival of the Giants and the Ranyhyn and the Bloodguard. He warned the people. And then with his own hand he destroyed -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Hunchback Jack
Servant of the Land


Joined: 12 Aug 2016
Posts: 24

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


111 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I always figured that he called himself Lord Foul, but that the enemy of the Creator wasn't known by that name at that time. So the name "Lord Foul" had no special significance.

It was only after he was discovered to be "that guy" that his name gained that significance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 3337

Thanks: 839
Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
1407 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always wonder if he was called "Lord Foul" because there was always this little reek of attar about him that he just couldn't hide, not even when he managed to make himself seem fair in other ways and always passed tests of truth.
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Shuram Gudatetris
Luxurator of In-Flux Crust Eruptions

Male
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 554

Thanks: 18
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts

Location: Cameron, Missouri
2305 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lego1 Translation1 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
aTOMiC wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
IIRC, Kevin didn't create the Wards until he planned to enact the Ritual

Its quite logical to assume that Kevin created the Wards specifically because he was intending to enact the ROD however its at least possible that Kevin may have begun collecting his lore in wards prior to his conflict with Foul as just a good idea in general

I would agree with you except the Wards seem to have been designed in a way that assumes no one would be around to guide the new Lords. The way the Wards are revealed only after the prior one was mastered ... this only makes sense when there is no one around who knows what that next Ward contains. If there was, it couldn't be kept secret.

Sure, Kevin already had his lore. He didn't invent the lore when he created the Wards. He may even have recorded his lore somewhere (although that seems to be not a thing people did). But the Wards were built for a specific purpose, and Kevin wouldn't have had that purpose unless he suspected the Lords and their works were going to be wiped out to a man.

In The Illearth War was wrote:
"And he was not blind. In the awful secret of his doubt, he refused the summons which would have taken him to his death in Treacher's Gorge. In his heart-wrung foresight or prophecy, he made decisions which preserved the Land's future. He prepared his Wards. He provided for the survival of the Giants and the Ranyhyn and the Bloodguard. He warned the people. And then with his own hand he destroyed -


My first reaction, as I read through this thread, was that I seemed to recall it being said specifically that Kevin created the Wards in preparation of the Ritual.

I'm not prepared to conduct an exhaustive search of the Chronicles right at this moment, but my first instinct lead me to Atarian saying this:
In Lord Foul's Bane, EIGHT: Dawn of the message, Stephen R. Donaldson wrote:
In his early years, he was wise as well as mighty and knowledgeable. When he saw the first hints that the ancient shadow was alive, he looked far into the chances of the future, and what he saw gave him cause to fear. Therefore, he gathered all his Lore into Seven Wards--

Seven Wards of ancient Lore
For Land's protection, wall and door--


and hid them, so that his knowledge would not pass from the Land even if he and the Old Lords fell.


Now, I'm not saying that Atarian in LFB is any sort of expert, but she did say "in his early years". Again, my understanding has always been that the Wards were created in preparation for the Ritual, but this is an interesting insight. And maybe Kevin's "hints that the ancient shadow was alive" came from none other than a-Jeroth, Foul the Gray Slayer himself? Wait, now I'm picturing a-Jeroth as Ian McDiarmid? :O

Whoa, wait a second. Are we even on topic here??? Shocked

Laughing

I always assumed that Lord "Foul" or "Lord Foul" (not sure which is appropriate) was a sort of re-naming along the lines of "Landwaster" or "Earthfriend".

Uh...Last Chronicles spoiler? I dunno:
In retrospect, it does seem to be that Foul was called a-Jeroth back in those Old Lord days (More specific Last Chronic-what-cles spoiler??? Somewhere in TLC, maybe I recall that Foul said something like, "In Kevin's days, when I was called a-Jeroth..." ?)
_________________
Covenant is Linden Frankenstein's monster.

I maxed-out Tetris!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18122

Thanks: 11
Thanked 177 Times in 164 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
40249 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch. I agree, that does imply that he may have created the Wards well before he planned to enact the Ritual. On the other hand, this does confirm that the Wards were specifically a preparation for a time without Lords, although he may not have foreseen how that would be.

(This passage is a bit contradictory to the earlier passage I quoted. However, it is not necessarily true that "when he saw the first hints" is co-temporal with "his early years". Which would alleviate the contradiction.)

The original question was whether or not Foul had had a hand in the creation of the Wards. Based on this new information, it is plausible -- unless he created them even before admitting Foul to the Council. But if Kevin was as secretive about creating the Wards as he was about hiding them afterwards, then it would be improbable.

One thing we know for sure is that Kevin created the Wards. Not the Council of Lords. Not Kevin and a team of interns. Kevin. Just Kevin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aTOMiC
aTOMiCus Prolificus

Male
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 20036

Thanks: 69
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts

Location: Tampa, Florida
6172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH2 Covenant's Novels1 Ultraman


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

One thing we know for sure is that Kevin created the Wards. Not the Council of Lords. Not Kevin and a team of interns. Kevin. Just Kevin.



Okay lets not get ahead of ourselves here. None of what transpired during the time of the Old Lords was reported in enough detail to know exactly what Kevin did or didn't do in great specificity.

Atiaran was taught everything she knew about Kevin from the Loremasters who in turn learned what they knew from the Bloodguard and from studying Kevin's lore from the first ward. The Haruchai were stoic and reported information in such a "need to know" fashion that massive amounts of detail wouldn't or couldn't have been gleaned from them to the point that the New Lords wouldn't have been anything like experts in what actually, specifically happened before the ROD.

When we as readers finally meet Kevin he's a severely damaged personality that comes off like an angry prick, that attitude is certainly justified, but I think there may be more to it. I believe that Kevin, thanks to Lord Foul's machinations, was slowing being corrupted by the dark side of the earthpower. If he was keeping secrets, like the existence of the Wards, then he may have hidden the fact that he had an apprentice that he had secretly trained. This apprentice...let's call him...Lord Darth for the sake of argument...most likely did all the menial clerical work required to arrange and catalog Kevin's lore and then create the scrolls and caskets which would house the lore. When Lord Darth found out that Kevin was planning to burn his own house down to prevent it from falling in Lord Foul's hands he must have confronted Kevin. Lord Darth probably accused Kevin of being as nutty as a bag of cats to even consider a plan that sounds eerily like a psychopathic murder suicide plot. Kevin, now having no further use for his short-sighted apprentice, puts him to the sword and then covers up all traces that Darth ever existed.

Doesn't this sound much more reasonable?

If you pressed Stephen Donaldson on the subject he'd probably just say that details of this kind did not further the plot of his book and therefore he never bothered to consider them.

And to quit asking such nerdy fanboy questions, Hell and Blood leave me alone!

Twisted Evil
_________________
Get 'em Soaper!


Quote:
"I'm not sure why I posted in this thread. Its like dropping a balloon into a cactus farm."


"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Hunchback Jack
Servant of the Land


Joined: 12 Aug 2016
Posts: 24

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


111 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a long time since I read the Chronicles, but it never occurred to me during any of my readings that Kevin created the Wards because HE was planning Desecration. I always got the impression that creating the Wards was an act of hope; his Despair came later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
IrrationalSanity
Caamora Obscura


Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1283

Thanks: 1
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts

Location: Someplace birds sing
978 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Leela V1.01 Member of Linden's Army1 Translation


PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of interesting new speculation here. Some in light of the most recent revelations, perhaps, but this is truly an area where we don't have much hard evidence.

We can be pretty darn sure he didn't just say "Let there be Wards" and have them spring into existence fully formed - the Land's magic just doesn't work that way. Years or decades of effort went into their fabrication.

That's perfectly reasonable. Kevin was extremely far-sighted, this much is known for certain. I suspect, however, that just as with any "sight" we can guess that his "in"sights started out dim and vague, and only sharpened as they became closer to realization. To that end, he probably very early on knew that a great disaster was coming which would devastate that Land and eliminate the Council. Maybe he couldn't see what form it would take, or (at least in the beginning) that he would have a hand in its downfall; but he knew that he had to prepare for it.

Hence the Wards were designed from the beginning in their self-revelatory, progressive form.

We also know that the Wards themselves are artifacts of power. Power of a level that must have been extraordinarily draining to imbue - even for a man of Kevin's great strength. This also lends credence to the idea that they were created gradually.

Now, it is quite possible that Kevin may have shared his vision and these preparations with the rest of the Lords from the very beginning. Since he didn't have the details at first of just how or when this disaster would fall, it would make perfect sense for him to come before the Council and say "I have this vision which disturbs me. At some time in the distant future some disaster will befall us. We must begin now to prepare. Here is how I propose that we protect the legacy of our Lore for the generations which will follow the great desecration..."

Thus, while Kevin would have guided their production, it may indeed have been a common effort.
_________________
- Woody -
Linden Lover and proud of it...
But I love my wife more!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch