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Was Lord Foul called Lord Foul while on the Council?
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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Kevin probably created the Wards alone, over a long period of time, as a hedge against a tragedy he may have had an inkling was coming.

I don't think Foul had any idea they existed - if he did wouldn't he have sought them out to destroy them or deny the people of the Land their use?

Foul only sought out the Illearth Stone and the Staff of Law, probably because he didn't know about the Wards.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's clear from the text that the lore in the Seven Wards was lore that Kevin intended to be available to any successors to the Old Lords that emerged after the Desecration. Thus the First Ward was given to the New Lords by the Giants, and the Second and Third Wards were discovered by the New Lords subsequently.

In this light we can assume that much of the lore itself was "public knowledge", at least in the sense that the Old Lords and the loremasters associated with them would have know and used it. However the lore involved in, for example, the making of Amok may well have only been known to the High Lord.

Lord Foul aka a-Jeroth would have partaken of the lore to the extent that any of the other Old Lords would have done, and of course being a lorewise entity in his own right he would have been likely to have his own ways of knowing the lore.

However, the creation of the Wards of lore, i.e. the codification of the lore into seven secure repositories as a hedge for the future, is something we can be reasonably confident that Kevin would have done all in his power to keep a secret from Foul.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still find it odd that none of the other lords, nor Kevin himself, could see that a-Jeroth wasn't a normal human. What sort of power or glamor did Foul have that made them accept him as an ordinary human male?

In no part of the Chronicles does Lord Foul present as an ordinary human. As soon as Covenant lays eyes on him, for example, he recognizes him as an ancient being of evil.

Foul doesn't seem the subtle type. Nor does his essential nature seem easily hidden, especially from the lore-wise and Earthpower-familiar.

Did he introduce the Ravers as his "three drinking buddies"? Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.
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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.


Figuratively...yes. But literally?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Was Lord Foul called Lord Foul while on the Council? Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
I still find it odd that none of the other lords, nor Kevin himself, could see that a-Jeroth wasn't a normal human. What sort of power or glamor did Foul have that made them accept him as an ordinary human male?

In no part of the Chronicles does Lord Foul present as an ordinary human. As soon as Covenant lays eyes on him, for example, he recognizes him as an ancient being of evil.

Foul doesn't seem the subtle type. Nor does his essential nature seem easily hidden, especially from the lore-wise and Earthpower-familiar.

Did he introduce the Ravers as his "three drinking buddies"? Smile


Maybe the true Lords could see that a-Jeroth wasn't a normal human, but did not know how to interpret just what they saw in him.

We see this in LFB when the Woodhelvennen find Jehannum somewhat unnerving and unsettling yet are slow to recognise naked evil when it's in their presence.

Maybe Foul wasn't subtle at all and dazzled Kevin & co. with knowledge and power that they coveted ... and maybe the 'guise of truth' that Foul wore wasn't that far essentially removed from his own nature; we have seen the people of the Land tolerate eccentricity and even hostility (Pietten) in the past..

Perhaps by acing the Staff and Sword tests they simply had no choice but to accept a-Jeroth as one of their own, as per their own rules ...

When you further consider the New Lords inability to detect the flaw in Elena's nature, and the use of 'glamour' in the Final Chronicles, then I think you've got a few different plausible ways to give credence to Foul's deception of the Old Lords.

Fact is though, we can't know, because Donaldson didn't see fit to expand upon it ... which makes it fun to speculate ..
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.

Figuratively...yes. But literally?

Absolutely. Also consider what Baradakas said: "Any test of truth is no greater than the one who gives it." IMO Foul could deceive the Lords because he was more powerful than the Lords. His power to disguise himself was greater than their power to pierce his disguise.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Was Lord Foul called Lord Foul while on the Council? Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
I still find it odd that none of the other lords, nor Kevin himself, could see that a-Jeroth wasn't a normal human. What sort of power or glamor did Foul have that made them accept him as an ordinary human male?

In no part of the Chronicles does Lord Foul present as an ordinary human. As soon as Covenant lays eyes on him, for example, he recognizes him as an ancient being of evil.

Foul doesn't seem the subtle type. Nor does his essential nature seem easily hidden, especially from the lore-wise and Earthpower-familiar.

Did he introduce the Ravers as his "three drinking buddies"? Smile


Maybe the true Lords could see that a-Jeroth wasn't a normal human, but did not know how to interpret just what they saw in him.

We see this in LFB when the Woodhelvennen find Jehannum somewhat unnerving and unsettling yet are slow to recognise naked evil when it's in their presence.

Maybe Foul wasn't subtle at all and dazzled Kevin & co. with knowledge and power that they coveted ... and maybe the 'guise of truth' that Foul wore wasn't that far essentially removed from his own nature; we have seen the people of the Land tolerate eccentricity and even hostility (Pietten) in the past..

Perhaps by acing the Staff and Sword tests they simply had no choice but to accept a-Jeroth as one of their own, as per their own rules ...

When you further consider the New Lords inability to detect the flaw in Elena's nature, and the use of 'glamour' in the Final Chronicles, then I think you've got a few different plausible ways to give credence to Foul's deception of the Old Lords.

Fact is though, we can't know, because Donaldson didn't see fit to expand upon it ... which makes it fun to speculate ..


Good points...

wayfriend wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.

Figuratively...yes. But literally?

Absolutely. Also consider what Baradakas said: "Any test of truth is no greater than the one who gives it." IMO Foul could deceive the Lords because he was more powerful than the Lords. His power to disguise himself was greater than their power to pierce his disguise.


But what about his advice on he council, how he interacted with the others and the people?

"By their actions, you shall know them" and all that...?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the full quote from Atiaran after Covenant has successfully handled lomillialor when tested by Baradakas.

"In the older age," she said, "when High Lord Kevin trusted the Gray Slayer, he was given priceless gifts of orcrest and lomillialor. The tale says that these gifts were soon lost - but while the Gray Slayer possessed them they did not reject him. It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth. Perhaps the wild magic surpasses truth."
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