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North Korea needs to be put in check
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: North Korea needs to be put in check Reply with quote

Quote:


By HYUNG-JIN KIM, Associated Press Writer Hyung-jin Kim, Associated Press Writer 9 mins ago

SEOUL, South Korea A North Korean-flagged ship under close watch in Asian waters is believed to be heading toward Myanmar carrying small arms cargo banned under a new U.N. resolution, a South Korean intelligence official said Monday.

Still, analysts say a high seas interception something North Korea has said it would consider an act of war is unlikely.

The Kang Nam, accused of engaging in illicit trade in the past, is the first vessel monitored under the new sanctions designed to punish the North for its defiant nuclear test last month. The U.S. military began tracking the ship after it left a North Korean port on Wednesday on suspicion it was carrying illicit weapons.

A South Korean intelligence official said Monday that his agency believes the North Korean ship is carrying small weapons and is sailing toward the Myanmar city of Yangon.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity citing the sensitive nature of the information, said he could provide no further details.

Myanmar's military government, which faces an arms embargo from the U.S. and the European Union, reportedly has bought weapons from North Korea in the past.

The Irrawaddy, an online magazine operated by independent exiled journalists from Myanmar, reported Monday that the North Korean ship would dock at the Thilawa port, some 20 miles (30 kilometers) south of Yangon, in the next few days.

The magazine cited an unidentified port official as saying that North Korean ships have docked there in the past. The magazine's in-depth coverage of Myanmar has been generally reliable in the past.

South Korean television network YTN reported Sunday that the ship was streaming toward Myanmar but said the vessel appeared to be carrying missiles and related parts. The report cited an unidentified intelligence source in South Korea.

Kim Jin-moo, an analyst at Seoul's state-run Korea Institute for Defense Analyses, said the North is believed to have sold guns, artillery and other small weapons to Myanmar but not missiles, which it has been accused of exporting to Iran and Syria.

The U.N. sanctions, which toughen an earlier arms embargo against North Korea, ban the country from exporting all weapons and weapons-related material, meaning any weapons shipment to Myanmar would violate the resolution.

The Security Council resolution calls on all 192 U.N. member states to inspect North Korean vessels on the high seas "if they have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo" contains banned weapons or material to make them. But that requires approval from the North.

If the North refuses to give approval, it must direct the vessel "to an appropriate and convenient port for the required inspection by the local authorities."

North Korea, however, is unlikely to allow any inspection of its cargo, making an interception unlikely, said Hong Hyun-ik, an analyst at the Sejong Institute think tank outside Seoul.

A senior U.S. military official told The Associated Press on Friday that a Navy ship, the USS John S. McCain, is relatively close to the North Korean vessel but had no orders to intercept it. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Any chance for an armed skirmish between the two ships is low, analysts say, though the North Korean crew is possibly armed with rifles.

"It's still a cargo ship. A cargo ship can't confront a warship," said Baek Seung-joo of the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses.

Tension on the Korean peninsula has been running high since the North's May 25 nuclear test, with Pyongyang and Washington exchanging near-daily accusations against each other.

President Barack Obama assured Americans in an interview broadcast Monday that the U.S. is prepared for any move North Korea might make amid media reports that Pyongyang is planning a long-range missile test in early July.

"This administration and our military is fully prepared for any contingencies," Obama said during an interview with CBS News' "The Early Show."

Still, ever defiant, North Korea declared itself a "proud nuclear power" and warned Monday that it would strike if provoked.

"As long as our country has become a proud nuclear power, the U.S. should take a correct look at whom it is dealing with," the country's main Rodong Sinmun said in commentary. "It would be a grave mistake for the U.S. to think it can remain unhurt if it ignites the fuse of war on the Korean peninsula."


These guys are definitely up to something.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the hell good is an embargo that no one is going to enforce? Rocket
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They may be up to something, but, really not much we can do, short of blowing them off the map, should they attack us. Embargos don't get enforced.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let this guy take care of them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obama's Missile Defense Misjudgment

Monday, June 22, 2009 4:37 PM

By: Frank Gaffney Jr.

What on earth are they thinking? The Obama administration and its Democratic allies on Capitol Hill are significantly reducing America's missile defense programs at the very moment when the need for such systems is becoming ever more palpable.

It is hard to believe especially in the wake of the president's much-ridiculed decision to close Guantanamo Bay without a better plan for safely incarcerating its dangerous detainees that either the chief executive or legislators really want to impale themselves on another national security decision that defies common sense.

The backdrop will be reported preparations by North Korea to launch a ballistic missile in the direction of Hawaii, possibly on the Fourth of July.

In the face of this emerging threat to one of America's 50 states, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has, to his credit, announced that he is moving missile defenses into place to protect our countrymen in Hawaii. Yet, at the same time, he and Obama are insisting that we can safely do without 14 more long-range missile interceptors, a second airborne laser and various other enhancements to our relatively rudimentary antimissile deployments.

Then, there is the Iranian missile threat. As the Obama administration refuses to do anything to help the people of Iran free themselves from the repression, corruption, and malfeasance of the mullahocracy that has for 30 years misruled them and threatened us, we face the prospect of much more of the same.

Should Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his puppet master, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, survive the present crisis, it is absolutely predictable that the range and lethality of the Tehran regime's ballistic missiles will only grow.

Worse yet, all other things being equal, these missiles will, in due course, be nuclear-armed no matter how much Obama tries to appease the mullahs. As the brilliant syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer noted last week, "The only hope for a resolution of the nuclear question is regime change."

In the face of this threat, what are the Obama administration and the Democrats on Capitol Hill doing?

They are abandoning the Poles and Czechs who agreed, with the backing, not once but twice, of all of NATO, to deploy antimissile systems on their territory so as to protect Europe and us from Iranian missiles. The so-called "third site" European-based missile defense will certainly not be built any time soon, if at all.

The anti-antimissile crowd is, moreover, trying to sweet-talk the Kremlin into dropping its hysterical objections to limited missile defenses in Europe by making them dependent on Russian systems.

This idea is transparently ludicrous. Moscow views the Islamic Republic of Iran as an important client, not a threat. It has helped build the Iranians a nuclear power plant at Bushehr which will, inevitably, contribute to Tehran's weapons program, if only through technology transfers, training, and political cover.

The Kremlin has also demonstrated where its loyalties lie by contracting over two years ago to provide state-of-the-art S-300 anti-aircraft systems to Iran.

If and when these lethal defenses are delivered, they will be used to protect the mullahs' nuclear weapons facilities from attack by American and/or Israeli aircraft.

Could we safely rely on the same folks who are helping Iran's loathsome regime amass the destructive capability it may well use against Israel, Europe or the United States to help us defend against that very threat? Not bloody likely.

Finally, there is the problem that even some Democrats on Capitol Hill: notably, Sen. Joe Lieberman (technically an Independent who caucuses with Democrats) and Rep. Bennie Thompson, the chairmen respectively of the Senate and House Homeland Security Committees, recognize could eventuate at any time an attack involving relatively short-range, ship-borne ballistic missiles used to launch a strategic electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attack against this country.

In his new, New York Times best-selling novel entitled "One Second After," historian and author Bill Forstchen describes the devastating effect such a strike could have on America.

In the absence of comprehensive missile defenses and/or "hardening" of our electrical grid, a missile-borne nuclear payload detonated high in space over the United States would unleash an intense burst of energy with what are predicted to be "catastrophic" results.

According to a congressional commission charged with evaluating the EMP threat, there would be extensive damage to the electricity and other infrastructures on which our 21st century society critically depends.

As a result, the commission's chairman, Dr. William Graham, says, "Nine-out-of-10 Americans would be dead within a year" from starvation, disease or exposure.


Do Democrats in the White House and on Capitol Hill really want to be seen as the party that out of an ideological opposition to national antimissile systems that is a throwback to utterly irrelevant Cold War security paradigms fails to provide for the common defense?

In the face of present and growing missile threats, it is imperative that sensible members of the Democratic caucus do what they have done in droves on Gitmo: Ignore their leadership and cross the aisle, this time to join Republicans in defending America, before it's too late.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm flabbergasted? Pres. Bush, the Father, used Patriot Missle systems, and Pres. Clinton used the patriot to further extents and sucesses. Why are Anti-missle systems (The bigger the better, if we're spending stimulus money to create jobs) not amongst some of the Government Job Creating programs? We've got some possible asteroid issues in the next 50 years (to say nothing of those celestial bodies we may not have noticed), surely the technology could lead to better solutions for those, should we need one. A "Star Wars" type defense grid could create lots of jobs in Aerospace, which is a well paying career, plus all the blowback business the suppliers would get. It's totally defensive, so no reason for anyone to object to agressiveness?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems like the best thread to resurrect this topic ... it has the right title, at least. Very Happy

U.S. May Launch Strike if North Korea Reaches for Nuclear Trigger


Quote:

The U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.

North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.

The intelligence officials told NBC News that the U.S. has positioned two destroyers capable of shooting Tomahawk cruise missiles in the region, one just 300 miles from the North Korean nuclear test site.

American heavy bombers are also positioned in Guam to attack North Korea should it be necessary, and earlier this week, the Pentagon announced that the USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier strike group was being diverted to the area.

...

"It's high stakes," a senior intelligence official directly involved in the planning told NBC News. "We are trying to communicate our level of concern and the existence of many military options to dissuade the North first."

"It's a feat that we've never achieved before but there is a new sense of resolve here," the official said, referring to the White House.


Obama has allowed NK to conduct test after test. Trump seems serious. Moving in an entire navel carrier group after hitting Syria and dropping the Mother Of All Bombs on ISIS, I think he's trying to send the signal that he won't tolerate what Obama tolerated. Even China seems willing to help:

Quote:
China has since sent its top nuclear negotiators to Pyongyang to communicate the gravity of the situation to the North, officials say. On Wednesday, President Xi called for a peaceful resolution to the escalating tensions.

...

The Trump administration, emboldened by their punishing strike on Syria, and by a successful meeting with the Chinese leader, hopes that the Chinese will use their considerable leverage to dissuade Kim Jong UN and his government from moving ahead with their nuclear program.

President Trump has said he thinks Xi "wants to help us with North Korea," He credited China during Thursday's White House news conference with Xi with taking a "big step" by turning back boats of coal that North Korea sells to China.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, on the one hand China gives all its old, out-of-date junk to North Korea and that gives it access to dangerous weapons. On the other hand, North Korea cannot keep the lights on at night and the country is always on the verge of mass starvation.

North Korea is the only country in the world still living in the Cold War world.

Put them in check? How about we just let them continue to languish in their own squalor until the people there finally decide to take matters into their own hands?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Put them in check? How about we just let them continue to languish in their own squalor until the people there finally decide to take matters into their own hands?
No. They are led by a madman who constantly threatens nuclear war and he's very close to having a missile that can reach America. If the people took matters into their own hands, he's very likely to blow up his neighbors just for the hell of it, if he's going down anyway. ANY instability in NK is danger for the rest of the world. They have very little to lose.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

North Korea has been unstable for years--its leaders have certainly been unstable--and yet nothing has happened so far. North Korea acts like this only because it thinks China has its back (which it usually does, but only so long an North Korea is useful to China).

Even if Kim Jong-un decided to first strike launch today, right now, then everyone in the world, including China, would move against North Korea.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Even if Kim Jong-un decided to first strike launch today, right now, then everyone in the world, including China, would move against North Korea.
That would be too late, right? The issue isn't whether we can beat NK, the issue is whether we can afford to lose LA because we're hesitant to "get involved."

If our hands are tied right now with regards to NK, just imagine how they'll be tied if they get a missile that can strike us. The danger isn't just that NK might strike us (or SK or Japan), the danger is also what they can demand of the world once they have missiles that can hold us hostage to their demands. You don't want them to get into that bargaining position, because then the world becomes even more dangerous than it is now.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Targeting LA might be a stretch for them, even if their not-quite-intercontinental ballistic missiles worked...but Seattle is the closest major US metro to Pyongyang.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't think they're really that close. Also see Trump appears to have backed off a little on "forcing" China to put pressure on them.

Turns out "it's not that easy."

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone is overstating North Korea's position. Only hours before Pence arrived in South Korea there was a new ballistic missile test in North Korea. Results: the missile exploded upon launch.

Now, if I were a conspiracy theorist or a worrywort I might think that the recent MOAB strike in Afghanistan was really just a test run for a potential MOAB strike on a North Korean facility. Don't forget--the military has never actually used that device in a real combat situation before but now they have so they can analyze its live results.

North Korea has been on our international shit list since the end of the Korean War, for reasons which defy description.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi, how do you know we didn't sabotage the NK missile launch?

NK has over a million armed soldiers, and 7 million in reserve. They have 100s of missiles (and have successfully tested many), and dozens of nuclear weapons. We're not overestimating their threat. This isn't like Iran, "Will they or won't they?" They ALREADY have nukes! How can that be overestimated?

Seriously, all it would take is one or two soldiers at the DMZ with itchy fingers accidentally shooting each other, and the world could be plunged into war. Nuclear war could break out in a matter of minutes. Don't let years of apparent inaction fool you into complacency. That would be like saying volcanos can't blow up because it's been a while since one did. The pressure is building. The capability is growing.

The reasons for being on our shit list don't defy reason. NK is defying the world, abandoning the Nonproliferation Treaty, kicking inspectors out of its country, and shooting missiles over its neighbors. What defies reason is people thinking they're not a threat, when they are literally threatening us with nuclear war.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Hashi, how do you know we didn't sabotage the NK missile launch?


I don't know. Do you have proof that we did?

If we did sabotage it then that proves that we can infiltrate and disable their weapon systems before they can be used aggressively, much like how we used Stuxnet to hinder Iran's uranium enrichment program. If we did not sabotage it then that proves either that the North Koreans are too technically inept to get a missile system to fire successfully or the third-rate hand-me-downs they get from China really are pieces of broken-down old junk.

Regardless of which case is actually true, we aren't finished cleaning up our mess in the Middle East so we certainly don't need to go around and start another mess by poking North Korea.

"Not antagonizing North Korea" is the the same as "capitulating to North Korea" so if we quit rattling our sabers first they have a choice: continue the rattling or shut up. If they keep up the rhetoric then everyone will see that North Korea is the problem and if they shut up then problem solved.

Perhaps if we would cancel the treaties we made Japan sign after World War II so they could arm themselves they and China can keep North Korea in check without us having to worry about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi, I'm genuinely surprised about your lack of knowledge on this. The Obama admin began the sabotage efforts after an alarming increase in NK's sophistication. That doesn't mean we've sabotaged every launch, or that all of NK's failures are due to us. But neither is it true that their missiles are hand-me-down junk. They've had numerous successful launches, and they're creating their own designs. In the last decade--since their first test of a nuke in 2006--their capability has grown exponentially.

Without a doubt, they are moving closer to an ICBM every year. Please read this article.

Quote:

North Korea's state-run media has occasionally shown propaganda footage of Kim huddling with his generals over what some analysts have jokingly called the "map of death": a chart that portrays Japanese and U.S. mainland cities as potential targets.

The laughter has now stopped, said Jeffrey Lewis, an expert on North Korean weapons systems. "This idea that these things were just bargaining chips - something that was true years ago - is superseded by the fact that there is now a rocket force ._._. with a commander and a headquarters and subordinate bases, all with missiles," said Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies. "This is now a living, breathing thing."

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They rattle their sabres every time they feel like people aren't paying them enough attention.

I doubt even they are mad enough to launch a strike. They have always seemed to just want people to take them seriously.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're not rattling sabers, they're rattling nukes. Razz

You don't think the guy who believes he's a deity and has his own family members killed for random and inexplicably stupid reasons is unstable enough to launch a nuke? Really? I suppose that 8 million man army is just for rattling sabers, too?

War doesn't have to break out intentionally. It can happen by accident. All it would take is for one of these malfunctioning rockets to fall onto Japan or South Korea. Or, (as I said above), two nervous soldiers on the DMZ.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That last is certainly valid...all too easy. The rest, sabres are nukes these days. Very Happy And that army is at least partly because it's effectively the only way to make sure you get fed...join the army.

Yes, they're mad...but that doesn't necessarily mean stupid. Certainly all the threats and posturing of all the years before have never resulted in actual action.

Of course, you're right, it could all change in an instant. But on the whole I tend to agree with Hashi that it's being overstated.

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