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The ur-viles' ultimate goal
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earthbrah
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be some similarities between the magic of the One Tree and the power of the Worm, but I wouldn't say they're the same thing.
The very way Donaldson describes it here implies that they are not equivalent.
But even if they are, the striking thing to me is that there arose some magic from one or the other that transformed Vain's forearm...was this alteration needful for the creation of the Staff? Did the ur-viles foresee this event? Did Vain know of it?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
There may be some similarities between the magic of the One Tree and the power of the Worm, but I wouldn't say they're the same thing.
The very way Donaldson describes it here implies that they are not equivalent.
But even if they are, the striking thing to me is that there arose some magic from one or the other that transformed Vain's forearm...was this alteration needful for the creation of the Staff? Did the ur-viles foresee this event? Did Vain know of it?


The symbolism seems obvious to me. The One Tree is a tree, and Vain's forearm was converted by the magic of that tree into wood. The SoL, as any staff, is made of wood. You can't have Findail merging into an ur-vile forearm, and the idea that the "arm of the Law" should be taken literally seems rather bizarre. "Staff of Law" sounds better than "Arm of Law."
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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviewing the line you quoted from FR, the tone of the sentence is hypothetical. It forms the last part of a string of speculations concerning the two Staffs of Law and their origins. However, if there is something to it, then perhaps in the last book the Worm of the World's End will, in its mindless way, recognize the Staff and respond to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My wondering is less about the symbolism and more about the possibly pre-visioned need for Vain's forearm to change in order to enable Findail to merge with him and create a new Staff.

Vain was created as pure structure, but it seems that his creation was incomplete. Perhaps the ur-viles made him imperfect because, un-lawful as they are, they were not capable of completing him. He needed an aspect of Law about him to make him mergeable with Findail.

This then leads me to think that the ur-viles somehow knew that the Search and Co. would find the One Tree, and that Vain's forearm would be altered somehow in the finding. Which then makes me think that the whole quest was ultimately for achieving that detail or gift.

The ur-viles ultimate goal no doubt involves the Staff of Law; it also no doubt involves whatever potentialities they see for the future. Their creations seem to be made with such knowledge in mind.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
My wondering is less about the symbolism and more about the possibly pre-visioned need for Vain's forearm to change in order to enable Findail to merge with him and create a new Staff.

Vain was created as pure structure, but it seems that his creation was incomplete. Perhaps the ur-viles made him imperfect because, un-lawful as they are, they were not capable of completing him. He needed an aspect of Law about him to make him mergeable with Findail.

This then leads me to think that the ur-viles somehow knew that the Search and Co. would find the One Tree, and that Vain's forearm would be altered somehow in the finding. Which then makes me think that the whole quest was ultimately for achieving that detail or gift.

The ur-viles ultimate goal no doubt involves the Staff of Law; it also no doubt involves whatever potentialities they see for the future. Their creations seem to be made with such knowledge in mind.


Hindsight is a good way of ruining this story. Suspension of doubt is required. How did the ur-viles know? Hmmm? Is there a clue to the reason in AATE? I don't think I can discuss that book here. However, it seems that the ur-viles are good at just tossing stuff out to see if it flies, and finding eventual success.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Implementing hindsight does not necessarily diminish the suspension of doubt--it just shifts it. And for me, the experience of the story is thereby enhanced rather than ruined.

No, we shan't discuss AATE here. But the thread's topic in context of FR and all that came before are still open to us.

In some way, the ur-viles ultimate purpose seems to be to aid Linden. One of her purposes is to seek an answer to Wildwood's question. He carved runes in her staff that will supposedly/maybe help her find this answer. And the answer may satisfy the once (and continually?) reinterpreted weird of the ur-viles. I'd be willing to bet that they seek knowledge or witness to Linden discovering some answer to Wildwood's question; or that that's at least part of their ultimate goal...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
Implementing hindsight does not necessarily diminish the suspension of doubt--it just shifts it. And for me, the experience of the story is thereby enhanced rather than ruined.

No, we shan't discuss AATE here. But the thread's topic in context of FR and all that came before are still open to us.

In some way, the ur-viles ultimate purpose seems to be to aid Linden. One of her purposes is to seek an answer to Wildwood's question. He carved runes in her staff that will supposedly/maybe help her find this answer. And the answer may satisfy the once (and continually?) reinterpreted weird of the ur-viles. I'd be willing to bet that they seek knowledge or witness to Linden discovering some answer to Wildwood's question; or that that's at least part of their ultimate goal...


I don't quite understand all that. One of the questions I had from the 2nd Chrons was "how did the ur-viles know?" Did they know the One Tree had a protective aura? Was Vain's forearm designed for such an impact with the aura? How did they know the aura would even touch that part of his body, or even touch him at all? Was Vain's forearm designed to attract the aura? What if he had ended up with a wooden leg?

The answer might be in AATE, only I can't discuss what that answer might be here. But at least if I post that here, some hold-outs waiting to buy and read the book might be curious enough to read it now. It's not a spoiler, but a teaser.

And anyway, if the ur-viles seek to aid Linden, it is only because they are primarily out to satisfy their interpretation of the Weird. And it has always been self-centered.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know whether this is off-topic or not, but it seems to me that there is some connection between the Elohim and the Ur-Viles.
I am merely speculating of course. But in order for Vain to achieve his purpose (merging with Findail) the Ur-Viles would have to have had some intimate knowledge of the Elohim, surely? They only provided half the staff, and inexplicably knew how the Elohim would respond in order to meed their goal. The Elohim knew Vain as soon as they met him too and attempted to ensure his goal would not be achieved.
I am reckoning that the Ur-Viles did not obtain all that lore by themselves, but it was passed on to them from the Viles and the Demondim. Is it possible that the Demondim/Viles/Ur-Viles are the 'shadow on the heart of the earth'? This would well explain the relationship between Esmaer and the Viles as well.

As for the Manacles, I know not how they could me used against the Elohim, if that indeed is their intent. I can't wait to find out how this all turns out though!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: The ur-vils's ultimate goal Reply with quote

ninjaboy wrote:
I don't know whether this is off-topic or not, but it seems to me that there is some connection between the Elohim and the Ur-Viles.
I am merely speculating of course. But in order for Vain to achieve his purpose (merging with Findail) the Ur-Viles would have to have had some intimate knowledge of the Elohim, surely? They only provided half the staff, and inexplicably knew how the Elohim would respond in order to meed their goal. The Elohim knew Vain as soon as they met him too and attempted to ensure his goal would not be achieved.
I am reckoning that the Ur-Viles did not obtain all that lore by themselves, but it was passed on to them from the Viles and the Demondim. Is it possible that the Demondim/Viles/Ur-Viles are the 'shadow on the heart of the earth'? This would well explain the relationship between Esmaer and the Viles as well.

As for the Manacles, I know not how they could me used against the Elohim, if that indeed is their intent. I can't wait to find out how this all turns out though!


As you bring up the ur-viles intimate knowledge and possible relationship with the Elohim, I am reminded of a passage, and I can't remember if it is from FR or AATE. At the risk of transgressing, I will just say that it seems that the way Kastenessen was the "father" of Esmer, bequeathing power being the only way that the Elohim have offsping, is similar to the way the Viles created the Demondim and so on to Vain. I don't think that Vain is the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim, but maybe the Viles are offspring of the Elohim.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: The ur-vils's ultimate goal Reply with quote

rbailey003 wrote:
but maybe the Viles are offspring of the Elohim.


Interesting notion. I don't think it is so...but with another step away, it might lead some places. By which I mean, [this mostly metaphorical---->] the Elo. and Viles as having a common "ancestor" in the Creator, the Elohim as the emotional/a-rational aspect, the viles the logical/analytic. Being neighbors for so long, they'd have an awareness/understanding of each others lore/tools, but not the capacity for actual use of them. And it leads to another tangible [to me] difference...[this is more literal---->] the Elohim connect "meaning" to "being what we are", the viles and descendents connect "meaning" to "what might/should we become?"
What they want is, even if they can't be/become Elohim-only-better [worth in being + worth in becoming] they want to participate in making a world where such things/creatures are possible.
Which is just another aspect of my grand theory about a central conflict involving the Ideal imposed on Material...and Meaning being one battleground.
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