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Let's guess the Croyel.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Let's guess the Croyel. Reply with quote

This is a creature that SRD hasn't really delved into.

But he has given us so many clues.

So what is a croyel?

A Bane?? (like one that Foul placed upon the world, at it' beginning.)

Can only be removed by killing it and it's willing host??

Has power of force and of mind?

Can it be removed from a host without killing it's host?

It has power, that isn't in dispute. It gives a longer life to it's host than normal lifespans.

It can work in tandum with other powers.

It is subservient to a higher power.

it is still unknown to us..

(right now)

So what is the croyel, so far to you?

So what is the Croyel and what is it's powers.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good topic. Overdue.

I don't think that the croyel are banes, in the sense that Foul placed them in the Earth. Banes are, to me, artifacts; inanimate evil. And the Earth is perfectly capable of naturally producing beings which are destructive. "Life necessitates death. Anything that lives carries within it the seeds of its own destruction."

I'm not even sure that the croyel are evil. Not everything natural is friendly to humans, and predators of all types are not evil, just dangerous to their prey. The same can be said of parasitic beings.

I don't believe that removing a croyel from it's host kills it. This idea seems like it comes from the happenings in the Sandhold. But Findail never claimed he had slain the croyel!! He only claimed that separating Kasreyn from the croyel caused Kasreyn to die, and even then only because his life was extended by that croyel beyond its normal span. (A fact on which Nom's Garden hinges.) So in general, there's nothing here that proves either the croyel or the host dies from separation. (In the case of Hamako, he attacked the croyel directly, not by separating it from it's host.)

All we know of croyel is Findail's brief definition: "Beings of hunger and sustenance which demnify the dark places of the Earth. Those who bargain thus for life or might with the croyel are damned beyond redemption."

Bargain is an intriguing word here. It implies that their host ultimately volunteers for the honor. Although I bet the croyel can be very persuasive. (Another fact on which Nom's Garden hinges.) In fact, this meshes well with Donaldson's paradigms of power, in which power given is altogether different than power stolen. Much of the benefit a croyel receives from its host is probably due to the fact that it is given.

The implications of this bargain with respect to Jeremiah are critical to the story.

Another thing worth noting about croyel. It seems that they may, or may not, be the controlling being of the pair. Certainly, the croyel ruled it's arguleh. Just as certainly, it rules Jeremiah, for Donaldson repeatedly and pointedly states that the croyel, not Jeremiah, made the choices and took the actions, once its presence was revealed. And Kasreyn? Do we assume he remained in control, or was Kasreyn long ago subsumed and all the Kemper's acts were the acts of the croyel? We know it is capable of such chicanery. So we can't assume to much. We need to learn more of this.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the impression Findail did in fact "slay" the croyel, because he had smothered it. Seemed like a final end to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're probably correct, MM; I am assuredly taking the unpopular view. But I think it's an arguable position. Because when Findail enclosed the croyel's head, it was Kasreyn who was asphyxiated!

In The One Tree was wrote:
At once, the Elohim became a hood over the infant's head. He sealed himself under the small chin, behind the downy-haired skull, clung there like a second skin.

Suffocating the child.

A scream ripped from Kasreyn's chest. He sprang upright, staggered out of the protection of his chair. His hands groped behind him, clawed at Findail; but he could not rake the Elohim loose. His limbs went rigid. Asphyxiation mottled his face with splotches of madness and terror.

Again he screamed - a cry of horror from the roots of his being:

"My life!"

The shriek seemed to break his soul. He toppled to the floor like a shattered tower.

Slowly, the theurgy blazing about his chair began to fade.


Did Kasreyn literally die from lack of oxygen? Possibly. All that screaming argues against it though. But it surely indicates that Kasreyn was deprived of something. Deprived, until dead.

A close look at what Donaldson wrote does show that Findail mortally harmed Kasreyn by his actions. Mottled face; something like asphyxiation; feeling his life leak away; falling dead. Whereas it says nothing about what happened to the croyel at all.

Also worth noting is that Covenant demanded that Findail "stop him", meaning Kasreyn. As I suggested elsewhere, the Elohim are chary of their interference. Findail would have done just enough to satisfy Covenant's demand, and no more. Only the slaying of Kasreyn was required here.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No argument over sneaky Findail. I can definitely see him doing only what was minimally required of him while resenting it the whole time...but also taking credit while absolving himself of any responsibility. You think SRD modelled them after lawyers?

So I'm willing to be open to the idea that Findail did not really kill the croyel, he just knocked it unconscious. You're right that we never got a "post-mortem" report - not even one sentence to tell us if the croyel was still joined to Kasreyn after he'd fallen, or if the thing had detached itself and crawled off somewhere. Maybe SRD deliberately left that detail out so as not to trap himself into a corner, in case he wanted to expand on the how and why of the croyel for the Last Chronicles (as you suggest with Jeremiah).

Quote:
And Kasreyn? Do we assume he remained in control, or was Kasreyn long ago subsumed and all the Kemper's acts were the acts of the croyel? We know it is capable of such chicanery.

Kasreyn was such a badass dude with his own system of magic, that it would be a shame if he was really just a puppet for the croyel.

Btw, the "Bat Boy" from Weekly World News has become stuck in my mind whenever I try to picture a croyel:



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good pic MM, if the eyes were shrunken that's how I see them.

As to Kasreyn, maybe he was so old that the death of the croyel exposed him to his real age and this killed him, as a result of his age the croyel was acting as a back-up/life support system. his neck WAS broken by Honniscrave(spelling?) in the dungeon.

As to the powers of the croyel I hold the view that they are anti-Elohim, that is that they give you a boost to whatever your particular power is. Incidentally this is why I believe that Kasreyn is the first Inquest we meet, even if we don't know of the Inquest at the time.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorhammerhand wrote:
As to Kasreyn, maybe he was so old that the death of the croyel exposed him to his real age and this killed him.

That's a distinct possibility. Such a distinct possibility, in fact, that we can't really say for sure that removing a croyel will, in and of itself, kill its host. We don't have enough samples to sort out a hypothesis.

In the case of Hamako, Donaldson is clear that he attacked the croyel and the arguleh both, slew both, with his power.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
... pitting his power squarely against the creature and its croyel ... Both arghule and croyel collapsed into water and slush until their deaths were inseparable from his ...

So, again, there's nothing here to say what would have happened had the croyel merely been separated from its arguleh host.

- - - - - -

Another interesting note. On Kasreyn, the croyel appeared to be a human child. On the arguleh, it appeared to be another, smaller arguleh. On Jeremiah, it was again a small child.

Are they shape changers? Or is their form a convenient illusion? Or are they in fact shapeless, like Ravers, and their physical manifestation is determined by those that they possess? Or are there different varieties of croyel around, each attracted to a different kind of host?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend, these posts are so inciteful that you've precluded any further comment!

I really do hope that we get to learn rather more about the Croyel. One of those nagging loose ends from the 2nd Chronicles (unless I've not come to the explanation yet) is the arguleh/croyel involvement.

What exactly was the motivation for them descending on the Land at this point? Was LF involved? Why did the Waynhim consider the arguleh/croyel such a threat to the Land (given the Land was already under the SunBane) that they would consider the extirmination of their whole race to prevent it? (Or was their motivation symply to cauterise their own earlier failure/loss?)

And given the involvement of a "bargain" with the host, I guess that it is possible that the nature of the Croyel's involvement can differ from host to host. It does seem that in the case of the Arguleh and Jeremiah the croyel was very much in control, whereas with Kasreyn the croyel just provided a life support system.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thought that I have nowhere to go with.

If I remember correctly:
- Linden was unable to perceive the croyel on Kasreyn with her earthsight
- Linden was unable to perceive TC with her earthsight when his mind was locked by the Elohim (at least in Kasreyn's dungeon)
- Linden did seem to be able to perceive the croyel with the arguleh with her earthsight.

Does this suggest that, in Kasreyn's case, he was dominating the croyel to the exclusion of its own mental processes?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder about the 'bargains' the croyel make with people and creatures. One croyel extended the life of its host (Kasreyn), one gave its host increased intelligence and the ability to communicate with and control its feral brethren (arguleh), and another gave its host increased magic powers, which could be used as part of a time-travelling ritual (Jeremiah). But do all of the croyel want the very same thing? A host and nothing more? Findail said that (paraphrasing) "Those who bargain with the croyel are beyond redemption"; this implies a "selling your soul to the devil"-type element to me...

As for their origin: I get the impression that they're just another species which developed naturally, like the Viles or (sort of) the Ravers. But I suppose that greater forces (such as the Elohim, or the banes buried deep beneath Mount Thunder) might have had something to do with them.

I wonder what would happen if an Elohim tried to make a bargain with a croyel? Or if someone possessed by a Raver did? What if Lord Foul did (or would that just be too weird)?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure we can conclude that the croyel gave Jeremiah increased powers. We don't know what Jere can do... it may just be that the croyel is being used to control him.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember Roger (in the scene where he had an army of Cavewights) being unable to to time-travel because he didn't have the croyel with him?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solar wrote:
I seem to remember Roger (in the scene where he had an army of Cavewights) being unable to to time-travel because he didn't have the croyel with him?

No, there is no scene in which Jeremiah didn't have a croyel with him. There is a deeper significance to this which will make seperating the two a very significant matter for the story. Namely, it revolves around the question of whether Jeremiah wants to be this way, or not.

Barnetto: there's nothing in the story that indicates that Linden detected the arguleh croyel with any percipience. She might have deduced it from seeing the doubled creature and not seeing anything with her health-sense. The text doesn't say AFAICT. Which means there's no conclusive inconsistency in this matter.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solar wrote:
I wonder what would happen if an Elohim tried to make a bargain with a croyel?


What could an Elohim gain from such a bargain? They are self sufficient.

Solar wrote:
Or if someone possessed by a Raver did?


That would be interesting. Would a Raver risk itself in such a way? Or would it pass the burden onto the host?

Solar wrote:
What if Lord Foul did (or would that just be too weird)?


lol, Too weird. Foul is from Outside. He wouldn't/shouldn't be effected.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always had a different take on the Croyel.
They begin as spiritual beings.
The bargain they strike with mortals is to leech off their humanity to give them corporal existence.
Like a leech.

We only saw the "baby" with Kasreyn because that was the stage the Croyel was at.
Jump ahead 200 or 500 years and the Croyel might be adult and Kasreyn might be a shriveled up old man or perhaps a baby attached to a fully in control adult formed Croyel.

Otherwise what is the gain for the Croyel? What does it get out of the bargain? Just a temporary passover from a spirit existence to a physical one?

I also think that when Findail killed Kasreyn he killed the Croyel as well. They have a symbiotic relationship. Otherwise the Croyel could have "fled" at the beginning of Findails attack.But it couldn't because it was now mortal flesh bound to it's host.
Now, was it's spirit freed to find another host? I don't think so. That sounds too much like a Raver and I doubt SRD is going to repeat an idea like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Solar wrote:
I seem to remember Roger (in the scene where he had an army of Cavewights) being unable to to time-travel because he didn't have the croyel with him?

No, there is no scene in which Jeremiah didn't have a croyel with him.

I was actually talking about the scene where Roger didn't have Jeremiah or the croyel with him, which is when he commanded an army of Cavewights. Presumably Jeremiah still had the croyel with him, wherever he was.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it seems that the Croyel took form of whatever they were attached to.. I mean with Kaseryn it was a human baby.. with the Arguleh it was a smaller arguleh crouched on top of another.. and with Lindens Son she had said show me the truth... when linden asked to be shown the truth it showed everything as it naturally should have been.. TC changed to Roger, the healthy Jeramiah reverted to his inanimate self showing bullet wounds and the Croyel ..well now the croyell was described as A small hairless creature like a deformed child with clawed fingers and sharp toes with malign yellow eyes and teeth which chewed on Jeremiah's neck. for some reason it reminds me of the Troll in that movie Cats Eye.



I dont understand the relationship because the Croyel only gets blood from the victim, but maybe it also feeds on more than blood from the host..thoughts and emotion also? while giving the victim supernatural powers & ability, so it makes me think that without a host the Croyel really has no power at all...that it must only have the ability to try talking its victim into a life of power, or when it comes upon something it can attach itself to without consent, it also must have intelligence and knowledge because it was able to act like a somewhat normal human being while controlling jeremiah,.. unless that was Roger controlling the actions and speech of Jeremiah.

it seems there are a few child like creatures in the land.. the Skest, the sur Jehherin, and the Croyel. I dont think the Croyel have much in common with the Skest or the Jehherin though.

what would a raver make of one of the croyel? it would be interesting to see what happened to a raver that tried taking over a body that was already controlled by one of the Croyel.. I wonder if the Croyel have anything to do with Foul..or do they serve their own purpose...would Kaseryn have looked like a 300 year old corpse if we were shown the truth regarding that relationship, just as we saw Jeremiahs plight once linden was shown the truth?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And whilst I was wrong about the arguleh Croyel in my post above (as Wayfriend pointed out, Linden may have simply noticed the absence of the "hump" when "looking" with her percipience), there still remains the question of how or why her healthsense/percipience cannot detect them and whether or not that is in any way related to the fact that she could not detect Covenant in the dark of Kasreyn's dungeon when he had the Kemper's gold band around him?

I think the point is unresolved. Perhaps she could sense the croyel on the arguleh (we aren't told). Perhaps, it was the Kemper blocking her percipience of the croyel on his back, just as he blocked her sense of Covenant? In relation to Roger/Jeremiah, there was clearly something bigger blocking her perception.

The Croyel remain an enigma at this juncture (like so, so, so much else!)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the reason they're invisible to health-sense is simply that they're powerful. Creatures such as the Elohim are also impervious to Linden's percipience...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solar wrote:
I think the reason they're invisible to health-sense is simply that they're powerful. Creatures such as the Elohim are also impervious to Linden's percipience...


But I thought that Linden could "perceive" the Elohim when they approached Elesmendene.... all that tinkling etc that no one else could hear. She probably couldn't push her percipience into them, but I didn't get the impression that her "percipience" was blocked to them in the same way that it was to the Croyel ie that she would become unaware of them if she closed her eyes.
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