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Passages that drive you crazy.
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The passage in chapter 3? 4? where the fox sees Frodo, Sam, and Pippin camping out on their journey through the Shire to Buckland, and the fox says to himself, "Hobbits? What the fuck are Hobbits doing sleeping outside?" Or something like that. Why are we getting the internal, verbalized thoughts of a fox? This has always bugged me as some stylistic holdover from the The Hobbit, when things were quite a bit sillier. But then I read Krazy Kat's fox-Radagast theory ... and now I wonder.

No, it's still pretty stupid.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
The passage in chapter 3? 4? where the fox sees Frodo, Sam, and Pippin camping out on their journey through the Shire to Buckland, and the fox says to himself, "Hobbits? What the fuck are Hobbits doing sleeping outside?" Or something like that. .




Hysterical Hysterical Hysterical


I read once that the first part of the LotR was written to be a bit easy on the eyes, so to speak.
It gets all "real" after the Council.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I read Krazy Kat's fox-Radagast theory ... and now I wonder.

No, it's still pretty stupid.


In a book that has trees that walk, talk, and drink beer, the Radagast theory isn't so daft.

Mm...ok. Fairs, fair. It is pretty stupid.
But then, readig the part where Gandalf holds a conversation with Gwahair, that was quite a surprise. A talking eagle!

I can't help wondering just how much of Gandalf's story as to how he had been imprisoned by Saruman is true, and what might possibly be lies. Radagast also plays a part in that story. As does Gwahair.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krazy Kat, I hope you didn't think I meant your theory was stupid! I meant that the fox passage in JRRT's text was stupid. Man, that was poorly worded. Please forgive my carelessness.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's ok, Zarathustra. Your post didn't bother me, even though I did think you meant my theory was stupid. No harm done.
As a matter of fact, as far as I know there's no evidence of that Radagast could turn himself into differant shapes, like animals and things.

To be honest, I shouldn't really post in this thread because I reckon 99.99% of the Lord of the Rings drives me crazy! It's got to be one of the most difficult books I've ever read. Even on seeing the Peter Jackson movie and getting to grips with how the story pans out, I still get hoplessly lost while reading. I just can't keep my concentration on the same page, and then left unsure if it was my imagination at work or Tolkien's intententional imaginings. Just as well I only return to read the book about once a decade.

This re-read had me noticing comparisons between Tolkien's Middle-earth and the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Like when Pippin first sees Minas Tirith: it's described as looking as if it was carved out of the mountain rock by the hands of Giants. Similair to Revelstone in more ways than I'd previously realised.
And comparing Sauron with Lord Foul made me think that Tolkien's world has far more darker content than ever I'd credited before.
When Gimli tells Pippin how he had found him on the hill after the last battle, and says, "When I heaved that great carcasse off you, I made sure you were dead.", makes me think that the end of the story is set through the lenses of rose-coloured glasses. For reasons I'm not too sure yet.

I like the idea that Bilbo had used his treasure to build himself a house, far away from the Shire. Somewhat like Frodo moving away to Crickhollow.
Bilbo had the Elves do the actual building, of course, and named his new house, 'the last friendly home'. Located in Rivendell.
I think this would have made a much nicer ending than having him sailing off from the Grey Havens into a golden sunset, with Frodo and the three Elven Kings.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of this thread while currently rereading LOTR (very slowly). On page 248, Many Meetings, Tolkien writes:

Quote:
Bilbo to Frodo: "I hear all kinds of news, from over the Mountains, and out of the South, but hardly anything from the Shire. I heard about the Ring of course. Gandalf has been here often. Not that he has told me a great deal, he has become closer than ever these last few years. The Dunadan has told me more ..."
So "close" and "closer" are indeed used to mean "secretive or reticent" as Stonemaybe pointed out.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
My initial reaction is that "less close" means "far". He was distant. Distracted. Not easy to talk to.



I thought WF answered me but I'm not seeing it again.
As I look at this again I think I got it.

"less close" = less closed off or more open or more expressive or talks more freely than before
So the contradiction that Frodo is noticing is that Gandalf is being secretive again.

I'm betting that the next time I read the book it's going to mess me up again though.
Laughing
I think you've got it (along with Stonemaybe and WF). And I think I know what messes you up, because even after I settled upon "less secretive or reticent," I reread Frodo's statement and find it confusing. The problem lies with the word, "then." It's ambiguous because it could refer to two different times--one when Gandalf was "close," and one when he was "less close."

Tolkien wrote:
'Pippin,' said Frodo, 'didn't you say that Gandalf was less close than of old? He was weary of his labours then, I think. Now he is recovering.'
I believe the correct reading is that "then" refers to the time of Pippin's statement (when he claimed Gandalf was less close), and not the time "of old." So Frodo is saying that Gandalf was weary of his labours when he lets some of his secrets slip to Pippin, and now he has recovered so he is starting to be his old secretive self again.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
I never picked up on how Bilbo said it too earlier in the story.
I swear though....even rereading this thread with the answer still messes me up.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my excruciatingly slow reading of LOTR, I've finally come to the passage which was the source for Frodo's reference in HLT's opening post:


On page 991, in The Field of Cormallen, JRRT wrote:

Sam: "...But I can see there's more tales to tell than ours."

"There are indeed," said Pippin turning towards him. "And we'll begin telling them, as soon as this feast is ended. In the meantime you can try Gandalf. He's not so close as he used to be, though he laughs now more than he talks ...."


Just adding it for the sake of completeness.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things that always bugged me was the wonder over how quickly Aragorn, Legolas and Gimili ran after Merry and Pippin when they were captured. Hello? The orcs ran way faster than them! Where is the marvel for the orcs?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a bad point. However, Saruman was magically aiding the orcs. And the fastest ones were the magically-bred super orcs, the Uruk Hai.

Truly, if we were being fair, we'd have to say that short-legged Gimli was the most impressive of all. Look at champion marathon runners. They all have one thing in common: tall lanky bodies. Don't see too many (human) dwarfs running marathons.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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