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Regarding Linden's Command
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:03 am    Post subject: Regarding Linden's Command Reply with quote

Recently someone (WF?) offered a quote stating that a Command made possible by Earthblood cannot affect anything not of the Earth.

If the Chronicles are consistent in this, then I have to assume that Roger stripped away the masks himself, and that it was his full intention to be revealed at some point or other.

I like this hypothesis because it fits in well with other things I've noticed, such as the fact that Linden is being manipulated through her power lust.
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your point. Although Roger is not "of the Earth," the power from Kastenessen is, so perhaps that is why the glamor surrounding Roger was stripped away.
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda glad she didn't say:

Free my son!

That croyel would have tried to hop on Roger and the fight would have begun.

Roger: Get off me you leech!
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
I see your point. Although Roger is not "of the Earth," the power from Kastenessen is, so perhaps that is why the glamor surrounding Roger was stripped away.


And yet there is also the quote from the book showing that the
Command was directed at the two, or at least at Roger/TC.
I think WF quoted this here recently: With the full force of the Power
of Command, she demanded of her companions,
"Show me the truth!"
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your issue here, Worm, and I have pondered this myself.

Since SRD didn't say anything specific about this, at least not yet, I am left to believe that he didn't see the issue that we see.

Another thought: Her command included the croyel that controls Jeremiah, and it was the croyel which created the illusory disguises. So: it worked.

But Linden should have thought that it would not work... It would be unlike Donaldson to have Linden not know about the limitations in the Power of Command. So why did she even try that Command? Did she accidently do something that worked because she forgot or was unaware that it should not work?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I see your issue here, Worm, and I have pondered this myself.

Since SRD didn't say anything specific about this, at least not yet, I am left to believe that he didn't see the issue that we see.

Another thought: Her command included the croyel that controls Jeremiah, and it was the croyel which created the illusory disguises. So: it worked.

But Linden should have thought that it would not work... It would be unlike Donaldson to have Linden not know about the limitations in the Power of Command. So why did she even try that Command? Did she accidently do something that worked because she forgot or was unaware that it should not work?


Oh yes, this is very ponderous because she did not demand anything of the croyel. But I do believe that either Linden didn't know the rule about the Command or, after 10 years in the "real world," she forgot.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to go back and search, but I don't think the limits talked about here are actually the limits of the power...and even if they were, what Linden did doesn't violate them unless you are willing to go to the logical extreme that no earthpower ever has any effect on LF or anyone he's touched or influenced ever...either y'all or I have to re-read all the sections that mention the power. In this particular case, I think it is y'all. [but I could be wrong.]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
I'd have to go back and search, but I don't think the limits talked about here are actually the limits of the power...and even if they were, what Linden did doesn't violate them unless you are willing to go to the logical extreme that no earthpower ever has any effect on LF or anyone he's touched or influenced ever...either y'all or I have to re-read all the sections that mention the power. In this particular case, I think it is y'all. [but I could be wrong.]


"The first of these hazards -- first, but perhaps not foremost -- is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged -- the Power cannot compel him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
I'd have to go back and search, but I don't think the limits talked about here are actually the limits of the power...and even if they were, what Linden did doesn't violate them unless you are willing to go to the logical extreme that no earthpower ever has any effect on LF or anyone he's touched or influenced ever...either y'all or I have to re-read all the sections that mention the power. In this particular case, I think it is y'all. [but I could be wrong.]


"The first of these hazards -- first, but perhaps not foremost -- is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged -- the Power cannot compel him.

That's pretty much what I remembered...unless LF himself powered the disguises, the power should have worked as it did. [presumably white gold would be beyond it, too] It puts people from "our" world in a funny place...they aren't natural, but the ability to bring them over is Earthpower...and unlike LF aren't pre-time or immortal.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm.....

Is there any fundamental difference, other than experiences, between a mortal from Covenant's world and a mortal from the Land? I don't think so.

So it could be argued that, while Covenant, Roger, Jeremiah, and Linden are from outside the Earth, by their physical makeup they are all still a natural part of the Earth. (Just not of that Earth.)

As opposed to Lord Foul, who is not just from outside the Earth, but is also outside of any Creation. He does not naturally dwell in a mortal plane, in a world, bound by Time.

It may be that, in spirit if not in letter, the One Great Limit was not meant to encompass anything from outside the Arch, but rather those things that are from outside the Arch because they are alien to Creation itself.

Consider the Demondim-spawn. They have been called "unnatural" any number of times, in the sense that they were not part of the Earth as the Creator made it. Would they be immune to the Power of Command? Somehow I don't think so, just based on what I believe is the author's intent. The Creator may not have made the Spawn, but he made the world that was capable of making the Spawn. So in another sense, they are natural.

In the same other sense, the Creator made the world that was capable of summoning people like Covenant. So, there may not be anything unnatural about them -- at least, from the point of view of the One Great Limit.

--- I am not saying I'd buy this explanation, but I am saying it's a possible explanation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Hmmm.....

Is there any fundamental difference, other than experiences, between a mortal from Covenant's world and a mortal from the Land? I don't think so.

So it could be argued that, while Covenant, Roger, Jeremiah, and Linden are from outside the Earth, by their physical makeup they are all still a natural part of the Earth. (Just not of that Earth.)

As opposed to Lord Foul, who is not just from outside the Earth, but is also outside of any Creation. He does not naturally dwell in a mortal plane, in a world, bound by Time.

It may be that, in spirit if not in letter, the One Great Limit was not meant to encompass anything from outside the Arch, but rather those things that are from outside the Arch because they are alien to Creation itself.

Consider the Demondim-spawn. They have been called "unnatural" any number of times, in the sense that they were not part of the Earth as the Creator made it. Would they be immune to the Power of Command? Somehow I don't think so, just based on what I believe is the author's intent. The Creator may not have made the Spawn, but he made the world that was capable of making the Spawn. So in another sense, they are natural.

In the same other sense, the Creator made the world that was capable of summoning people like Covenant. So, there may not be anything unnatural about them -- at least, from the point of view of the One Great Limit.

--- I am not saying I'd buy this explanation, but I am saying it's a possible explanation.


It sounds like you're trying to divide this into natural vs. supernatural, where anything natural is a mortal creation, whatever earth its from, and anything supernatural is original to itself, immortal, outside of the effects of time.

I like my own theory - of course - and I fear that asking Donaldson would only lead to the usual "wait and see" response. But the context of the events under Melenkurion Skyweir leads me to believe that Linden was being led by the nose. Roger/TC was without a doubt leading her on to use the Power.

Recall this statement from "Covenant" from earlier on in FR: "Hellfire, Linden, you can Command any damn thing you want. All you have to do
is want it, and you and your kid will be reunited. In your proper time. Anywhere you choose. If it'll make you happy, you two can live in Andelain together for the rest of your natural lives."

An obvious lie which she fell for completely. Nobody can Command anything they want.

Then there were the events under Melenkurion Skyweir. Covenant waited for her to catch up after their passage through the waterfall. Linden pondered, Why had he and Jeremiah waited for her? Was Covenant honest after all? More honest than she had been? Or did he simply want her to witness what he did, for good or ill? They waited even though Covenant had bargained to drink first so he could freeze time around Foul 10,000 years in the future. When Linden dove for the EarthBlood she appeared to take them by surprise even though, having no problem with their footing on the slippery floor, they could have easily prevented her crude dive from succeeding. And her attempt was predictable, since it is such power Linden craves, and her distrust of "Covenant's" lies was deepening.

After Linden drank from the EarthBlood, newly revealed Roger (who, the text states, had the power to cast his own TC illusion), allowed Linden to recover her strength after his counter-attack: If he had struck at her then, he might have slain her. She was lost and aghast, overwhelmed with rue: she could not have defended herself. While they chatted, Roger fed her only a few half-truths, except for this interesting attempt to cover up a motive by revealing it: "You obviously think I'm stupid. You want to keep me talking so you'll have time to recover." Of course, that was his purpose behind their little q & a.

But Linden asked a question that required an answer that would be too direct, too revealing: "If the two of you aren't strong enough to destroy the Arch of Time on your own, why didn't you just come here? What did you need me for? What was so important about keeping me away from Andelain?" Linden had recovered her strength by this time, so Roger took the opportunity of a difficult question to attack, and lead Linden away from the EarthBlood.

In retrospect, the answer is obvious. Linden needed to be kept away from Andelain, until the proper time - not because Roger feared what would happen there, but because he desired it. There are precisely two reasons why Linden needed to be kept out of Andelain: 1. her use of power was not skilled enough, and 2. her despair was not deep enough for the task. What task? Rousing the Worm while calling the real TC back from the Dead. At this point in FR, Roger's next goal is to lead her back to Andelain, beginning with their false routing out of Melenkurion Skyweir which was not a routing on Linden's part but a goading on by Roger.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an awesome theory, Worm. My first reading of FR seemed to make Roger out to be like a villian from an eighties cartoon (Blast! Foiled again! I'll get you next time, Linden! Next time! *Mer-oooow!*). This theory really makes him into a much more calculating villian, if not an actual loyal minion of Foul or Kasty....very intriguing theory.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, Roger was calculating.

But did not the text explain that Roger only dared approach Earthroot when he was with Linden, because her presence kept the Elohim and the Insequent from interfering with him? And that his mission had multiple outcomes, all conducive to helping Foul, and it didn't really matter whether Roger succeeded in drinking?

Anyway, Worm, while I understand your post, I am not clear how it explains why the Power of Command worked. Unless your saying that it didn't work, and that Roger and the Jeremiah croyel voluntarilly revealed themselves, because that's what their plan called for at the time. If that is so, then, I agree, it's a possibility.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Oh, Roger was calculating.

But did not the text explain that Roger only dared approach Earthroot when he was with Linden, because her presence kept the Elohim and the Insequent from interfering with him? And that his mission had multiple outcomes, all conducive to helping Foul, and it didn't really matter whether Roger succeeded in drinking?

Anyway, Worm, while I understand your post, I am not clear how it explains why the Power of Command worked. Unless your saying that it didn't work, and that Roger and the Jeremiah croyel voluntarilly revealed themselves, because that's what their plan called for at the time. If that is so, then, I agree, it's a possibility.


By the way, it was the croyel who attacked Linden, impaling her left hand to the Staff, after she asked the difficult question. Roger then taunted her with a new question, saying: "No, Doctor. The question you should be asking is, why did we have to take you out of your own time to get what we wanted?" Which was followed by a series of Roger's useful half-truths such as his reasons for requiring Linden's presence at EarthRoot, and a few self-serving truths, until the final battle out of Melenkurion Skyweir began in earnest. I agree that Linden's presence was required, but not exactly for the reason stated. Half-truths.

I'm not saying that Roger planned every single event, and I'm sure he had alternative plots in his opportunistic mind. However, the end-result would be the same: Linden's despair coming out of the mountain, and the addition of the runes to the Staff.

But like I said before, if the Power of Command won't work on Roger (who as I said was capable of his own TC illusion) and Jeremiah, then the truth had to be revealed by them. [edit - and since Linden had no idea what truth there was to reveal, the choice was left up to Roger and Jeremiah to reveal that truth which was in line with their goals.] There are obvious, calculated reasons for this. Linden would not very well feel compelled to elicit enough dangerous puissance to rouse the Worm and bring TC back from the Dead. She would not feel the depth of despair required to lead her to whatever resolve such an act depends on. And worse yet to come: "The Mahdoubt seemed to suggest that Jeremiah had formed a willing partnership with the croyel."(!) [edit - this quote comes from page 301 of the US hardcover edition.]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
That is an awesome theory, Worm. My first reading of FR seemed to make Roger out to be like a villian from an eighties cartoon (Blast! Foiled again! I'll get you next time, Linden! Next time! *Mer-oooow!*). This theory really makes him into a much more calculating villian, if not an actual loyal minion of Foul or Kasty....very intriguing theory.


Donaldson is awesome. I wouldn't expect anything less out of him than a bad guy of Roger's stature. And of course, Foul outdoes them all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me just add, WF, that I don't see how Roger could have possibly known what Command Linden would deal out. However, he is opportunistic and conniving enough to roll with it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I'm not saying that Roger planned every single event, and I'm sure he had alternative plots in his opportunistic mind. However, the end-result would be the same: Linden's despair coming out of the mountain, and the addition of the runes to the Staff.

The runes on the Staff may have been forseen by Foul, and they may play into his hands. But remember that the Mahdoubt could have prevented Roger and Jeremiah's plans at any point by revealing them. She knew, I feel, that it was worth the sacrifice in order to acquire those runes. And Wildwood is far sighted as well. Therefore, it may be that those runes are as necessary for defeating Foul as they are for Foul's plans. That's the way that Foul works.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
I'm not saying that Roger planned every single event, and I'm sure he had alternative plots in his opportunistic mind. However, the end-result would be the same: Linden's despair coming out of the mountain, and the addition of the runes to the Staff.

The runes on the Staff may have been forseen by Foul, and they may play into his hands. But remember that the Mahdoubt could have prevented Roger and Jeremiah's plans at any point by revealing them. She knew, I feel, that it was worth the sacrifice in order to acquire those runes. And Wildwood is far sighted as well. Therefore, it may be that those runes are as necessary for defeating Foul as they are for Foul's plans. That's the way that Foul works.


Caerroil Wildwood doesn't care for anything beyond the woods, not for Foul or Linden or anything else. However, he did care about the Staff of Law, as an object of power made - out of wood.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Regarding Linden's Command Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Recently someone (WF?) offered a quote stating that a Command made possible by Earthblood cannot affect anything not of the Earth.

If the Chronicles are consistent in this, then I have to assume that Roger stripped away the masks himself, and that it was his full intention to be revealed at some point or other.

I like this hypothesis because it fits in well with other things I've noticed, such as the fact that Linden is being manipulated through her power lust.


Wow... I never even considered that Linden was trying to command Roger & Jerry. I always thought it was the Earth itself which stripped away their illusions.

There's evidence that she suspected them of lying about their identities.

(checking the text) OK, it seems she definitely commanded them... and it also says that "briefly she had become Earthpower, and could not be refused." So whether or not Roger would have revealed himself anyway, I'm willing to believe that he was compelled.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Regarding Linden's Command Reply with quote

Rigel wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Recently someone (WF?) offered a quote stating that a Command made possible by Earthblood cannot affect anything not of the Earth.

If the Chronicles are consistent in this, then I have to assume that Roger stripped away the masks himself, and that it was his full intention to be revealed at some point or other.

I like this hypothesis because it fits in well with other things I've noticed, such as the fact that Linden is being manipulated through her power lust.


Wow... I never even considered that Linden was trying to command Roger & Jerry. I always thought it was the Earth itself which stripped away their illusions.

There's evidence that she suspected them of lying about their identities.

(checking the text) OK, it seems she definitely commanded them... and it also says that "briefly she had become Earthpower, and could not be refused." So whether or not Roger would have revealed himself anyway, I'm willing to believe that he was compelled.


There was more to it: the fact that the Command does not affect anything not of the Earth, such as Foul or white gold, nor presumably Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah.
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