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Thomas Covenant's parents

 
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.


And a parallel between Desecration and leprosy, correct?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.


And a parallel between Desecration and leprosy, correct?

Yes indeed...at least as symbol/metaphor...I'm not one of those who thinks Leprosy/RoD happened at the same literal instant.
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the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.


And a parallel between Desecration and leprosy, correct?

Yes indeed...at least as symbol/metaphor...I'm not one of those who thinks Leprosy/RoD happened at the same literal instant.


Why not? The Desecration occurred about 1000 years before Covenant first came to the Land. Since 1 day in the real world equals 1 year in the Land, that would mean Covenant contracted leprosy about 2 years 8 months before. Roger wasn't much older than that at the time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Why not? The Desecration occurred about 1000 years before Covenant first came to the Land. Since 1 day in the real world equals 1 year in the Land, that would mean Covenant contracted leprosy about 2 years 8 months before. Roger wasn't much older than that at the time.

I'd have to check numbers to make an actual argument about this. But I am content [for myself] with: It just literally feels too literal. And potentially reductive. You end up in things like the Sanitarium/Foul's Creche comparison: metaphorically sweet. But then SOMEONE's gonna say "So, when TC went there, that's when LF took up residence" "The happy rotting person was Drool Rockworm! "So BS Building Contractors were Servants of LF when they built the Sanitarium! The Foreman was a Raver! He hated TREES! Remember when he was a Lumber Jack!"
I have the same issue whenever people want to logically explain how magic works, like it's physics...fun in a way, but eventually I want to say "Hellfire and Damnation! It's freaking MAGIC! If it was Physics, this would be Sci Fi!"
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.


And a parallel between Desecration and leprosy, correct?

Yes indeed...at least as symbol/metaphor...I'm not one of those who thinks Leprosy/RoD happened at the same literal instant.


Why not? The Desecration occurred about 1000 years before Covenant first came to the Land. Since 1 day in the real world equals 1 year in the Land, that would mean Covenant contracted leprosy about 2 years 8 months before. Roger wasn't much older than that at the time.


Unfortunately SRD himself said, when asked specifically about that, that he never considered any time line that matched the real world.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Why not? The Desecration occurred about 1000 years before Covenant first came to the Land. Since 1 day in the real world equals 1 year in the Land, that would mean Covenant contracted leprosy about 2 years 8 months before. Roger wasn't much older than that at the time.

I'd have to check numbers to make an actual argument about this. But I am content [for myself] with: It just literally feels too literal. And potentially reductive. You end up in things like the Sanitarium/Foul's Creche comparison: metaphorically sweet. But then SOMEONE's gonna say "So, when TC went there, that's when LF took up residence" "The happy rotting person was Drool Rockworm! "So BS Building Contractors were Servants of LF when they built the Sanitarium! The Foreman was a Raver! He hated TREES! Remember when he was a Lumber Jack!"
I have the same issue whenever people want to logically explain how magic works, like it's physics...fun in a way, but eventually I want to say "Hellfire and Damnation! It's freaking MAGIC! If it was Physics, this would be Sci Fi!"


Sure, analogies can get silly. But the subconscious can be a pretty strange, scary place.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Thomas Covenant's parents Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Vraith wrote:
Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
In the Second Chronicles, Linden's dark history with her mom and dad is excruciatingly spelled out for us. We hear one time about Joan's parents, and one of Jeremiah's (I only remember one, anyway). Atiaran and Trell to Lena, Covenant and Joan or Lena to Roger and Elena, and the rest...

But where are Covenant's in all of this? I can't for the life of me clearly recall a passage where their impact on our hero is accounted for, let alone mentioned in passing.

I know that the limitations on parents in my own stories likely reflects my own peculiar distance from 'em, but it doesn't sound to me like Donaldson was distant from his dad, anyway (remember the dedication for the first three novels?).


Hmm...interesting to ponder. Eye-blink response is that SRD didn't feel he needed them, and my speculation as to why is that what we know about Covenant himself before leprosy is he was happy. His writing was highly successful, his love with Joan wonderful. There's a general impression that his life had always been fulfilling...that impression is enough. There's a parallel with the Land's idyllic past here too, of course.


And a parallel between Desecration and leprosy, correct?

Yes indeed...at least as symbol/metaphor...I'm not one of those who thinks Leprosy/RoD happened at the same literal instant.


Why not? The Desecration occurred about 1000 years before Covenant first came to the Land. Since 1 day in the real world equals 1 year in the Land, that would mean Covenant contracted leprosy about 2 years 8 months before. Roger wasn't much older than that at the time.


Unfortunately SRD himself said, when asked specifically about that, that he never considered any time line that matched the real world.


I believe Roger was actually about 2 years younger than that at the time, maybe more.

Even if Donaldson didn't make such a time-line, it is still possible to make one. I am not attempting to prove the parallels theory with a time-line. There are already too many coincidences between events in the Land and the real world to be coincidences. Donaldson, through Roger, made this evident in Runes:

Quote:
Raging through her teeth, she clutched the keys in her fist and punched the dashboard hard enough to gouge metal into her palm.


Then Roger stated, presaging events to come:

Quote:
"It's too late," he told Linden. "You're already lost. You should be able to see that. Your hand is bleeding, Doctor." His tone betrayed a hint of eagerness. "Why do you suppose that is?"


And since we already know that 1 year equals 1 day, the rest is mathematics.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe by the end the timelines will merge and we'll see Covenant's dad helping explain everything, which will also explain where our Prover of Life's parents are. Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:
Maybe by the end the timelines will merge and we'll see Covenant's dad helping explain everything, which will also explain where our Prover of Life's parents are. Razz


I'm glad you mentioned timelines merging. Here is an interesting passage from Runes describing the Arch of Time as being part of some larger time-structure:

Quote:
Now towers festooned with curlicues of track reached up on either side of his bedroom door to meet in an arch at the height of the lintel. Raceways in airy spans linked those structures to the ones which he had already finished. Yet the design would have been useless to its cars. The track through all of its loops and turns and dives formed an elaborate Mobius strip, reversing itself as it traveled so that in time a finger drawn along its route would touch every inch of its surface on both sides.


Timelines don't merge, but they do meet themselves back at the beginning.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he neglects them because they are not relevant to who Covenant is in these books. From the very beginning, he is defined purely by his leprosy... he defines himself as a leper, not a man. He has eliminated everything that could penetrate him emotionally except for his wife and son. When he starts to change, it is as a result of the land first and Linden later.

He does not return to who he was; he becomes someone separate from the man his parents raised. Thus they are rendered unimportant.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolves wrote:
I think he neglects them because they are not relevant to who Covenant is in these books. From the very beginning, he is defined purely by his leprosy... he defines himself as a leper, not a man. He has eliminated everything that could penetrate him emotionally except for his wife and son. When he starts to change, it is as a result of the land first and Linden later.

He does not return to who he was; he becomes someone separate from the man his parents raised. Thus they are rendered unimportant.


Sounds like you're answering more than one question here. The leprosarium taught Covenant that he is now a leper, Donaldson discusses this experience almost as a religious one as if the leprosarium were a church and the doctors were priests. Covenant has learned to treat his new life religiously. I agree that separating from his old life is part of that. Covenant burned his books for a reason.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolves wrote:
I think he neglects them because they are not relevant to who Covenant is in these books. From the very beginning, he is defined purely by his leprosy... he defines himself as a leper, not a man. He has eliminated everything that could penetrate him emotionally except for his wife and son. When he starts to change, it is as a result of the land first and Linden later.

He does not return to who he was; he becomes someone separate from the man his parents raised. Thus they are rendered unimportant.


This does make sense to me.. I would expect in the first draft of LFB the author would have written them in in a minor way, but may have had to edit them out for various reasons (pages) and even if they were in the first book, I doubt SRD and his editors would have expected that there would be any interactions with them in the later books.
However I think that it is a good move that there are no mention of TCs parents, it allows for a greater chance of the audience bonding or empathising with TC if they can imagine his parents are like their own..
If I had to imagine them though, I would expect them to be a fair bit like SD's own parents..
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas Covenant has to be utterly alone after Joan leaves him.

If his parents were mentioned, it would only then lead to the question: would not his parents still visit him/help him/support him? The answer would have to be 'no'.

So why introduce parents only to explain why they are not around? That is, as had been said, of no use to the story.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, I agree, Wayfriend.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This question seems far more important than the treatment it's received here suggests.

Think how critical Linden's parental relationships were.

At the start of the FC TC is quite young. His parents should still be alive and if they died recently there is no indication of it, so if they are dead they would have died while he was very young- of which there is also no indication.

So maybe they were still alive.

What sort of parents would they have been if they had shunned him for his leprosy, not even writing to him or calling him? Were they the type of religious bigots who would shun their own child?

If they were still alive at the time of the SC, might they not have contacted LA after TC died?

I have wondered if maybe TC is a foundling and his parentage is a mystery.
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