Geography of the Land

hyarmion · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:13 am Post subject: Geography of the Land

I may not be the first person to notice this, but has anyone ever noticed the similarities between the geography of the Land (before the Sunbane) and that of Tolkien's Middle-earth east of the Misty Mountains?

Consider, if we equate the Land's Westron Mountains with the Misty Mountains then Revelwood is Lothlorien (with some similarities), Garroting Deep is Fangorn Forest (with some very obvious similarities), Tolkien's great dark forest Mirkwood has been broken up to become both Grimmerdhorne and Morinmoss, Mount Thunder is the Lonely Mountain (Erebor), and Iron Hills have become Seareach (only populated with Giants rather than Dwarves, big people rather than little people), the Seas of Rhun and Nurnen, have been joined and expanded out to become an ocean. Melenkurion Skywier (a big mountain) is the Mountains of Moria, especially Caradhras, and the caverns under Melenkurion Skywier are the Mines of Moria. The similarities are further enhanced by a look at Pauline Bayne's illustrated map of Middle-earth, a copy of which can be viewed here. You will notice she has decorated the map with a picture of horses dancing in exactly the place where the Plains of Ra would be.

But wait, there's more: Kevin's Watch is Amon Hen (Tolkien's Hill of Sight), Mithil Stonedown is pretty much exactly where Minas Morgul would be. And the old name for Minas Morgul was Minas Ithil (it was the suspicious similarity between the names Mithil and Minas Ithil that got me thinking about all this). And more: Doriendor Corishev is Osgiliath (both ruined cities).

Following this scheme we see that Revelstone is Rivendell (definately some similarities) only moved to the other side of the mountains and made into a fortress city.

Yes, I know there are some things that don't fit, the rivers run the wrong way for a start. And Foul's Creche is little too far North to be equated with Sauron's Barad-dur. And the Land does have some original elements, there is nothing on Tolkien's or Bayne's maps to suggest Andelain, nor Landsdrop nor the Sarangrave.

Thorhammerhand · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:27 am Post subject:

Yes, there are the similarities that you point out.
Yes, SD recognises JRRT as a motivator for the land in the Gradual Interview

No, I do not believe that Middle Earth in any way influenced The Land, geographically speaking. Rather it highlighted the geographic/geopolitical elements needed for a fictitious, realistic, historically and culturally rich back drop for an extremely compelling fantasy series that, IMHO is second only to LOTR.
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peter · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:55 am Post subject:

I think this is a fantastic post Hyarmion.

Not only do I agree with the comparisons you make, but I believe that both the Land and Middle Earth are enriched thereby! The obvious relationships between the two places (the way you spell them out) serve to make both more than the are on thier own. I will confess to having a preference for the Land - there is a softness there that is somehow mising in Middle Earth which comes across as more austere - but I think your post will have gone some way to having evened the score.

Many thanks.
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SGuilfoyle1966 · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject:

DrPaul · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:38 am Post subject:

I've thought for a while now that if Dostoyevsky had attempted to write TLOTR he'd end up writing something like The First Chronicles

peter · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject:

Orlion · Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:21 am Post subject:

You should read Crime and Punishment. There is little doubt in my mind that Raskolnikov helped inspire, at least partially, Thomas Covenant.
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- Herman Melville
Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence
-William Blake
I personally believe anyone who seeks power over anything but their own soul is either sick or terrified.
Alas, that is most of us to at least some extent.
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peter · Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:20 am Post subject:

Orlion · Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject:

I found it to be a very enjoyable and accessible read. I read one of the more recent translations ( Pevear and someone else) which was smooth as far as writing is concerned. It's also one of his shorter ones (about four hundred pages). I read it for a class, and everyone in it loved it.

I'd say give it a couple chapters, and if you don't get into it by then, you can set it aside untill you're ready.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence
-William Blake
I personally believe anyone who seeks power over anything but their own soul is either sick or terrified.
Alas, that is most of us to at least some extent.
-Vraith
But just because it's not rational doesn't mean we don't get to choose. We get to choose. We must get to choose. Because those choices define who we are and what we are about.
-Wayfriend

peter · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:59 am Post subject:

jackgiantkiller · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject:

ALL Blasphamy, you should be ashamed of yourselfs compairing TC to LOTR, you should not even be allowed to think that way, heratics,burn the lot
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High Lord Tolkien · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Geography of the Land

Orlion · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject:

To comment on the original post, I think you will always have similar geography if you're trying to create a self contained land where its conflicts won't necesarily spill outwards immediately and where random invasions from outside can complicate things.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence
-William Blake
I personally believe anyone who seeks power over anything but their own soul is either sick or terrified.
Alas, that is most of us to at least some extent.
-Vraith
But just because it's not rational doesn't mean we don't get to choose. We get to choose. We must get to choose. Because those choices define who we are and what we are about.
-Wayfriend

Relayer · Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject:

peter · Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:06 am Post subject:

Isn't ther a theory somewhere that there are only 7 basic plotlines one of which is the 'Quest' novel. Perhaps in some way this spills over into 'imaginary topography'.
_________________
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard

Relayer · Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject:

You might be thinking along the lines of writers like Joseph Campbell who talk about archetypes in people and in stories... I'm not that familiar with his work (it's been years since I've read it) but the "Heroes Journey" comes to mind as one of the most basic. IIRC in many ways it's similar to the Quest concept.

I'd love to know what you were thinking of and what the 7 are.
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peter · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:43 am Post subject:

Relayer · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject:

Oh, I'm not looking to disprove it... I pretty much agree with the concept. Thanks! Smile

_________________
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon

Vraith · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject:

Orlion · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject:

The guy forgot role-reversal...you know, heros become villians, villians become heros and so forth.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence
-William Blake
I personally believe anyone who seeks power over anything but their own soul is either sick or terrified.
Alas, that is most of us to at least some extent.
-Vraith
But just because it's not rational doesn't mean we don't get to choose. We get to choose. We must get to choose. Because those choices define who we are and what we are about.
-Wayfriend