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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reading along Reply with quote

I got my copy of AATE yesterday and started reading it today. Nana Party




I've decided that this time I will take things more slowly. I've ruined a few books for myself by devouring them like there was no tomorrow and getting an emotional overload. So this time around I'll take it one chapter at a time. Whip




I hope to use you all to help me resist giving in to temptation. I'll post my impression from the book after each chapter. You're welcome to comment as long as you don't spoil what I haven't read yet. Eeek 3 Monkeys Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

have you gotten to the point where Lord Foul reveals he's Covenant's father and Linden is revealed to be a german shepherd in goblin's clothing yet?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Chapter 1 Reply with quote

I decided to skip the what has gone before section. I haven't forgotten things and hopefully there was nothing new in it. I've already read chapter 1 in Donaldson's site but that's no reason not to begin anew.

Chapter 1 - A Thomas Covenant perspective AND a walkthrough of the Land's ancient past! Excellent. I keep wondering whether Covenant will remember any of the things he recalls here or is it just for our benefit? I really hope it's the former.

His wish to be more supportive of Linden than the Creator was touching and the way he kept losing parts of himself was very sad. And then we're told he's dying!

Covenant's memories were interesting. Lord Foul appears weaker in his eon-long recruitment campaign then he ever looked before. And who are these new races?

And Loric's Krill's origins are revealed! A stone from Melenkurion Abatha and alloyed metals imitating the white gold ring. This was certainly unexpected. But it made me wonder. the white gold rings weren't made to be weapons. They hold positive meanings. But what is a dagger but a weapon? Loric took from the White Gold ring legend the part about a limitless destructive force but he left out the white gold potential as a creative force. And his purpose in it was to silence the deathless Viles. Hmm.

I'm not sure what to expect from Thomas Covenant next. Will he become a normal mortal like he was before he died? Or maybe a really ordinary mortal, bereft of his wild gold ring giving his love and moral support to Linden and making the young Liand insanely jealous (and ashamed of it). Will his injuring, his leprosy be healed?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revan wrote:
have you gotten to the point where Lord Foul reveals he's Covenant's father and Linden is revealed to be a german shepherd in goblin's clothing yet?


Noooooooooooooooo!

(I only finished chapter 1 and 2)
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just finished chapter 2 myself. I'm definitely in the mood for a chapter-by-chapter discussion. I liked your comments. I gave my chapter 1 impressions in the chapter 1 thread, so I won't repeat myself here. I've also started a thread on the theme of ignorance and the necessity of freedom, which should be spoiler free up through chapter 2. (I was getting ready to post some more there now that I've finished chapter 2.)

As with the first, the second chapter is almost agonizingly slow--that is, if this weren't something I really wanted to linger over and savor. I don't think I really appreciated the end of Fatal Revenant until now. I know that I should have realized waking the Worm was bad, but until we spend 42 pages getting all the characters reactions to this event, it doesn't really sink in and have the impact that it should have. Every character has a different reaction, from the violent anger of the Humbled, to the remorseful support of her friends, to the unshakable faith from Covenant himself. And we learn they only have *days* until the end of the world. Wow.

Now it really hits home that *this* is what Lord Foul has been predicting. This is how Linden will destroy the world. The action that we've been told to fear has been done. And it happened right at the half-way point, right when Covenant was brought back into the story. We're finally able to believe that the faith of her friends might have been misplaced. We still want to root for her, and still want to believe that something hopeful will come of her actions (as Liand does), but it's suddenly possible to think that we're wrong. Maybe we're all misled by our previous experience with Donaldson's ability to redeem his characters. With the waking of the Worm, I feel like my own sense of peril has been awoken. Just because Donaldson is good at what he does doesn't mean that this is going to be easy. It will take a miracle of writing to get Linden out of the hole she has dug.

On to chapter three.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
We're finally able to believe that the faith of her friends might have been misplaced. We still want to root for her, and still want to believe that something hopeful will come of her actions (as Liand does), but it's suddenly possible to think that we're wrong. Maybe we're all misled by our previous experience with Donaldson's ability to redeem his characters.


Let's remember, though, that while things are looking pretty cataclysmic right now, we actually have seen worse. Consider this: ignoring context and how things played out afterword, which of these two sounds more apocalyptic:

Linden wakes up the Worm

versus

Covenant gives the white gold to the Despiser
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Onward to Chapter 2 - (Thanks for your impression from this chapter Z)

Did you ever wonder what you'll do if your messiah turned out to be a bonehead? You know he's your only hope but do you have to blindly accept everything he does and hope for the best? Bah.

It seems that Covenant's problem is mostly mental. His leprosy is somehow connected to Kevin's Dirt which is weird, particularly since they're currently in Andalain where there's no dirt. I don't understand that. But it seemed I was wrong to assume all his extra memories and powers would leak out of his head and he'll become the mortal man he was before his transcendence. (I noticed in chapter 1 that Covenant transformation from a timeless spirit into a flesh and blood mortal is compared to Jesus' turning bread and water into holy flesh and blood. I have now opened a permanent The Free Dictionary tab on my computer to help me understand what I'm reading. This site seems to be the equal of Donaldson's epic tongue. I sometime get annoyed that none of the characters ever say "But what does that mean??") Does that mean Covenant will continue to give mysterious answers gleaned from the other side?

The reaction of everyone to Thomas Covenant strengthens the impression of a Jesus figure. This is the birth scene. I'm not sure I like this but on the other hand he says all the power and decision-making is in the hands of Linden. Maybe this ignoring of Linden to concentrate on Thomas by everyone is an oblique rebuke by her companions for dooming them all and acting like a selfish jerk?

Why doesn't she try to help the love of her life? Possession is evil, sure, but every act of helping someone has an element of that. Does she believe she shouldn't staunch the wounds of a car accident victim because he's unconscious and has a right to his own body? This is moronic.

I can understand Linden's mindset in this chapter. She doesn't deserve anything good, everything she touches is destroyed and things are doomed anyway. How can she believe she deserves to help Thomas Covenant the Great? On the other hand that's pretty selfish when no one else can do it. And then it turns out somebody else CAN save him. Really, there's no end to how much this knife gets twisted in her heart.

I wonder what would've happened if she tried to forgive Elena. Is it within her provenance to pass judgment and/or forgive Elena? Somehow I don't see it. And why are her crimes portrayed as worse than Kevin??? Sure she broke the LoD but she hadn't despoiled and destroyed her land, (certainly not of her own free will) She didn't ruin its wonders and its culture, and yes, condemned its people to a millennium of exile and suffering. Her wrong is more abstract to me.

What does it mean to break the law of death? From my understanding of the books there has always been some kind of afterlife. She didn't fundamentally change the meaning of death and life. She just allowed a bit of contact. In many ways it seemed like she enriched the lives of the people of this world. Kevin just raped everything he loved until nothing remained whole.

The reconciliation for Kevin was touching, but did he deserve such forgiveness? The timing made me think it was more for Linden's benefit then because he deserved it. I haven't considered before that Loric would feel that he failed in his role as a father to Kevin. <Surely there was something I could've done when Kevin was young that would have prevented him from doing his Desecration.> I suppose it's because they were all so long lived and bigger than life. Hard to see them as just father and son. Still, all in all I'm happy for the Lord Fatherers' family.

And guys, keep distracting Linden! She's on a role here.

What, no! The Elohim were responsible for Longwrath's geas???? I had such a great theory about how the Ravers were responsible for it (here) Now I don't know what to think. Why do the Elohim want to kill Sandgorgons and what's the deal with this ability to escape iron handcuffs he shares with Joan? Something smells rotten here (I now suspect a pact between the ravers and the Elohim. I'm not giving up on my theory haha)

And the company only have a few days before the world ends. That is way shorter than what I expected. Is Infelice ringing the doombell prematurely for dramatic effect? Obviously everyone who's powerful believes that Linden can do something to save the day, but why make things look more hopeless than they already are if that's the case?

Infelice's explanation of the role of the Elohim in creation was interesting and put them in a new light. They are fey entertainers responsible keeping the big bad Worm monster from getting mad. If they ever stop smiling and laughing and having a great fun fun time the monster will waken and eat them all up just before it gobbles everything else they worked to preserve in a few eyeblinks. This highrope they've been treading for eternity would certainly give anyone else the heebie jeebies.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished chapter 3. For me, it was a test of endurance, with a pay-off that rewarded my endurance. For the first time, I started to feel that those here who complained about the pace being too slow were right. 60 pages of the characters standing in the same exact spot and arguing ... whew! How many times must the Humbled utter their objections? How many times must Linden get to the brink of handing over the Staff and the ring, only to be delayed at the last minute by someone else? How many long-winded speeches must we endure from characters who are all starting to sound exactly the same?

But then we get to the end of the chapter, and once again I feel like the moment is earned. Like bringing back Thomas Covenant, you can't have Linden give up her powers on a whim. It must be an agonizing choice. We must feel her pain, even if that pain is simulated by the sheer effort of reading through pages of dialog so dense and abstruse that they would test the patience of a magically sentient thesaurus, a being of pure wordsmithing puissance made cognizant through earthpower and the undeniable desperation of publishing deadlines etched in the unalterable Law of a writer's contract. ( Twisted Evil ) Good lord, I felt like Donaldson's own mind had fractured along with Covenant's for more than a few pages. When the Adent started with his speeches (longish paragraph near the top of page 57, for instance) I felt like Donaldson had turned on some synonym-and-obscurity machine to finish the job for him. And I usually love him for his language and style! But he has topped his previous record for sending me to the dictionary, scratching my head in bewilderment, or simply rereading a passage over and over asking, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Over-the-top quote of the day:

Quote:
... a personal effluvium of cerise and incarnadine and carbuncle, ecru and ivory, turquise and viridian and azure, blue as deep as velvet, yellows ranging from the fulvous and the sulphuric to the palest gold.


Have you ever seen the movie Amedeus? You know when that snooty, jealous composer criticizes Motzart's music for having "too many notes," and we all laugh along with Motzart as he says, "which ones would you have me take out?" And we all realize how silly the criticism is because it's just a lame attempt from one of Motzart's inferior rivals who can't come up with anything substantive or relevant to say. Anyone else remember that? (Seems like I've used this example before ...) Well, given sentences--no, mere fractions of sentences--like the one above, I no longer think such criticisms derive from merely snootiness, jealousy, and lack of relevant criticism. Sometimes there's just too many damn notes! Razz
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra - your second paragraph above had me belly-laughing for five minutes, esp. <i>pages of dialog so dense and abstruse that they would test the patience of a magically sentient thesaurus, a being of pure wordsmithing puissance made cognizant through earthpower and the undeniable desperation of publishing deadlines etched in the unalterable Law of a writer's contract.</i>

Too funny. I read the first few chapters in the book store, then went home to curl up in the easy chair with a blanket, a diet mountain dew, the book, and a Webster's. And I faithfully looked up words until the very sentence you quote , and saw carbuncle and ecru, and said "you have got to be kidding me. They must be colors, and I'm not looking this stuff up right now. Gah!"

And I'll point out something which I normally never share about myself, which is that I made a perfect score on the SAT Verbal, and I still think SRD is crazy.

(But I'll also add that it's part of the fun, and I probably have to credit Donaldson for a lot of my vocab success.)

I'm enjoying the chapter-by-chapter reflections. Shadowbinding, I don't think it's Linden's right to forgive Elena, simply to reach out and offer compassion. Why it's Linden's job to do that, though, and not Covenant's or Lena/Trell/Atiaran or her fellow Council members (Mhoram?), I don't know. I also don't know why it's Linden's job to do it *now*. She's a wee bit upset at the moment.

As for the relative level of their crimes...yeah, I don't see her crime as commensurate with Kevin's. One can at least argue that Elena didn't know what she was doing, whereas Kevin did. Maybe one could argue that Elena's battlelust and willingness to break the Law was evil, or a fatal flaw, but she did truly think she was going to stop Foul, without ruining the Land. And at least part of this was a desire to spare Covenant. But then, I don't think the chapter does put her crime equal to Kevin's. It simply puts her *despair* on the level with Kevin's, not her crime. She's grouped with Caer Caveral as one of the Lawbreakers, not as a Desecrator of the Land.

On the other hand, perhaps Elena did act in savagery, and heedless of consequences - which sounds like Linden and Elena committed the same crime, while Berek is saying Kevin's crime is lesser.

I could be a Kevin-apologist in some ways. Really, what else was the guy supposed to do? The RoD *did* reduce Foul. That gave the Land a thousand more years, when Foul was apparently about to take over completely. And Kevin did warn the Giants, save the Bloodguard, leave his Wards, send away Ranhyn and Ramen, send as many people of the plains to safety as possible...maybe nuking everything was despair, but trying to save stuff for the future is *not* despair. And if he thought the Ritual might end Foul, and give the Land a chance for new life...

But Kevin's injury/crime was apparently two-fold - he destroyed what he loved; and he wanted to punish himself for failing to be equal to Despite.

Still...one could argue that his refusal to surrender had better consequences for the Land than the Masters' willingness to fight and die rather than permit anyone to touch Power.

But I digress, huh? Anyway - the argument per Berek is that the despair of a great heart is less evil than...what? Recklessness and vengeance? I suppose Elena and Linden share that mindset at the time of their respective law-breaking, and that's why Elena looks to Linden?

And hey, it just occurred to me *for the first time in however many decades since reading WGW* that Caer-Caveral was in love with Elena. Interesting that the two of them are united by Law-breaking now.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you're too funny zarathustra. And the point about the indistinguishableness of the different voices and the inappropriateness at times of their language bothers me even more than the sheer amount of obscure words Donaldson uses.

Linden shouldn't use these sorts of words and a chapter from her point of view shouldn't contain them in its descriptive parts either. Well, Carbuncle should be OK. She's a doctor after all but as for the rest... definitely not.

chaplainchris - Were Linden and Elena's motivations evil? I don't think so. And I don't think Berek implied it either. He was trying to console Linden by telling her that only creatures consumed by Despite and hatred are capable of truly serving his purposes.

So, Chapter 3 - Wow, our metaphysics just got a lot more complicated. I like it. Smile If I understand things rightly, instead of good pro-life creator and evil anti-life Despiser we now have a whole spectrum of timeless deities each built around one primal emotion. The Creator is what, Order? Joy? Hope? Personally I'm leaning towards Joy. But maybe he's everything that's left after the Despiser and the rest were torn out (if we accept the creation story where initially there was a meta-creator that contained both the current Creator and the Despiser (and others)).

Then there is the Despiser which I think is Self-Hate and now we also have Diassomer Mininderain which is Love, whom we never met personally but Covenant tells us exists. Apparently she has a connection to the merwives. Minin(g) de(=the) rain? How many people mourned the lack of timelessness in Love? There are a lot of possibilities here.

To each deity there is an avatar in the Land. Joan is the avatar of Love as Covenant explicitly tells us. Roger is the avatar of Indifference I think. Covenant of the Creator and Linden... of the Despiser. Or maybe not.

So Covenant won't return to being an ordinary mortal. I never expected him to remain timeless in mind or at least memory before I started this book. But I'm glad the time-nuggets we got in the first chapter weren't just a plot device to give us the info. I'm forced to ask, is there Kevinish Dirt in Andalain? I was sure there wasn't but it keeps being brought up in connection to Covenant's leprosy. Anyway Covenant succeeds where Anele failed in embodying the figure of the prophet. His words are mysterious and full of meaning, his connection to the here and now tenuous, his truth unquestionable, his presence striking. Before he was Earthfriend, now he is the Colossus of Tales. He is about to tell us more but unfortunately Linden has other things on her mind.

We learn the plan of the Harrow. I was disappointed. He will have the Staff of Law and the White Gold Ring and he still needs Jeremiah, no, Jeremiah on automatic kroyel gears to imprison the Worm. And to top it all off his plan is very unoriginal. It's just the Vizard's scheme aimed at the the Worm instead of the Elohim and using overwhelming brute force to compel Jeremiah into it instead of words of seduction. Harrow, consider me your no. 1 unfan. His knowledge of Jeremiah's location comes apparently from the stolen knowledge of the Demondim spawn. I wonder why Linden can't use her staff to enhance her perceptions enough to understand what the ur-viles say. Or let them do it. It seems well within their capabilities.

We also meet another Insequent: Ardent. How is he connected to the Madoubt? Is it the colorful ribbands he covers himself in that are reminiscent of the patches of the Mahdoubt's clothing? Or maybe the seeking of companionship far and wide and the taking of joy with his dinner-companions? He certainly brings us a much needed dose of humor and levity.

What will happen next? Linden gave up her instruments of power but she will still have some control over the situation once they find her son through Ardent. How could Ardent, even with the power of all the rest of his race constrain Harrow when Harrow has the staff and ring at his disposal? Maybe Harrow's control over them will indeed be limited so his capabilities won't be as impressive as all that.

I think Covenant words of encouragement will come into play here. Linden's love of her son will help her overcome the kroyel. Now that she is bereft of her armor of power her heart will be her weapons and its effects will be devastating.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I feel a strange compulsion to make a joke about being here all week ... something about veal ... Cool

chaplainchris wrote:
And hey, it just occurred to me *for the first time in however many decades since reading WGW* that Caer-Caveral was in love with Elena. Interesting that the two of them are united by Law-breaking now.
Thanks for reminded us of this detail. It's been 5 years since I read the first 2 Chrons, and I completely forgot about that connection. It would have been interesting if SRD had played that up a bit. Troy would be the one person who actually could forgive Elena based on the empathy of similar exerience, being a Lawbreaker too.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
And the point about the indistinguishableness of the different voices and the inappropriateness at times of their language bothers me even more than the sheer amount of obscure words Donaldson uses.
Yes, exactly. I think he should do a better job of keeing the character voices distinct, and restricting the obscure words to the narrative voice rather than having so many in the character dialog.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
If I understand things rightly, instead of good pro-life creator and evil anti-life Despiser we now have a whole spectrum of timeless deities each built around one primal emotion.
I read that slightly different. I don't think love and despite were part of the same single primal emotion. Instead, I think they have more in common with each other than they have in common with indifference simply because they are both emotions, while indifference is the absence of emotion (or at least caring).

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Anyway Covenant succeeds where Anele failed in embodying the figure of the prophet.
Yes, that's true. But Covenant's success in reprising Anele's role only emphasizes the fact that we've seen SRD do this very same thing before with another character. That is frustrating.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
We learn the plan of the Harrow. I was disappointed. He will have the Staff of Law and the White Gold Ring and he still needs Jeremiah, no, Jeremiah on automatic kroyel gears to imprison the Worm. And to top it all off his plan is very unoriginal. It's just the Vizard's scheme aimed at the the Worm instead of the Elohim and using overwhelming brute force to compel Jeremiah into it instead of words of seduction.

I see what you're saying. I don't disagree; however, I think my own disappointment over the unoriginality of the Harrow's plan was mitigated by the sheer relief in the fact that a character was actually forced to state his intentions! Sure, it took another powerful character to magically force this confession, but at least we got it. And the plan makes sense. It sounds like it could work. So we now have a reason to hope, even if poor Jeremiah must be used in order to get it.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Now that she is bereft of her armor of power her heart will be her weapons and its effects will be devastating.
Interesting.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Reading along Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
I got my copy of AATE yesterday and started reading it today. Nana Party




I've decided that this time I will take things more slowly. I've ruined a few books for myself by devouring them like there was no tomorrow and getting an emotional overload. So this time around I'll take it one chapter at a time. Whip




I hope to use you all to help me resist giving in to temptation. I'll post my impression from the book after each chapter. You're welcome to comment as long as you don't spoil what I haven't read yet. Eeek 3 Monkeys Evil or Very Mad


Ive been blowing through the book at mach 10. I think Im going to stop where I am (a little more than halfway) and go back and read more slowly and try to take in a bit more. I am so anxious to get from one spot to another I think Im missing too many important morsels.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I'm a little late. You're welcome to join us Soulbiter.


Chapter 4 (*) - We get chapter-heading confirmation that what Linden just did was an Unwisdom. But the action is postponed (for the last chapter I think) in favor of character expositions.

This chapter was almost dictionary-free. Perhaps Donaldson had some scruples after the explosion of the last chapter.

Linden gives us some good introspection. She admits that she cares about the Land and its inhabitants and doesn't want to harm them. And she doesn't want them to sway or condemn her perhaps. So she wants to take just Anele with her. Powerful but mindless. She has problems adjusting to her new state of powerlessness.

Covenant is determined to be hopeful. And he decides to take the Krill. It seems like he has no connection to it. He can't use its magics in any arcane way. That's a little wasteful of its potential but we will have to see. I like how he insists on being meaningful. It reminds me of his dilemma in the start of WGW. The right thing to do then was to give his ring to Linden and let her use it with her Earthsight. But he wasn't able to relinquish it. Now I'm wholeheartedly behind him.

He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind. I don't really understand what Stave did. He says "The Unbeliever has spoken. You will acquiesce. How otherwise will the Humbled redeem themselves in my sight?" and the Masters redeem themselves by trying to Punch Linden's head off her shoulders and relenting when Stave manages to stop them. I really have no idea what just happened here. Does anyone else understands it and can explain it to me?

My question about the presence of Kevin's dirt in Andalain is answered in this chapter. It's there but its effects are muted (though not entirely negated) by the wraiths of Andalain. We learn that Covenant's Leprosy is rapidly gaining hold on his body. He only has a few days to live. He will go blind even before that. This sounds terrible. I'm beginning to suspect that Covenant's body and soul are linked to the Land's existence somehow. He will die in a few days of Leprosy which will destroy his nervous system and the Land ('s world) will die in a few days because the Worm will eat the earthpower which give it life. He is losing his sensations in his extremities and the Land is covered in the Dirt. His mind spans the existence of this world but is riddled with fault-lines and the Land is riddled with caesures. He loves Linden and tries to help her but she doesn't help him because her son is more important.

He doesn't want his Leprosy healed. Is it to help him get the Krill or is there more to it? I think because of the connections I mentioned that there's much more at work here.

It seems Covenant existence as Timewarden made the Land's world deterministic and now that he left his office uncertainties and free choice are running rampant. Is this the explanation for the Theomach's ability to know what the future holds? This makes me glad Covenant is no longer the Timewarden.

I like the story of the Giants. Are they bad people for giving an unpleasant member of their people to a troll? This is certainly not their proudest moment and now it's come back to haunt them. I wonder if the parallels with the story will go further. Just like Covenant believes that Linden's love for her son will be stronger than Foul's (and the Kroyel's) claim on him, the happiness the couple in the story found with each other and the rejoicing of the Giants for it , the thing the Elohim didn't grasp or ignored would at last bear fruit in Longwrath. (I also wonder how he'll catch up with the party when they finally get moving. Maybe he'll show up after they return from wherever Jeremiah is)

Covenant tries to console them with logic and Mahrtir with sentimentality. The giants are moved by the later.

The Ardent and the Harrow are having a spat. Ardent is interesting and I feel like I should be moved by what he does and risks here. But I don't really know him yet so it's a little hard to get attached to him. Meanwhile the Harrow gets his arm twisted so much its no longer there anymore. I feel a little sorry for him. A smidgen, but still.


Question: how do you feel about the use of quotes from previous points in the books? I'm not too fond of them. They pop up way too often and I don't always remember where they came from. And they also feel like oversimplifications. As though a big scene or a central character can be summed up with a catchphrase.

Until tomorrow.


(*) Sheesh, it was chapter 4 not chapter 6! Thanks Z for pointing this out Ahh!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
As though a big scene or a central character can be summed up with a catchphrase.

Actually, they can. It's called a leitmotif, and is used frequently both in music and literature--especially by such geniuses as Richard Wagner and SRD. (Another example in the Chrons is Covenant's frequent use of "Hellfire and bloody damnation!" or derivatives thereof whenever he's amazed or angry or otherwise highly emotional.) SRD has commented before about his interest in Wagner's music (see the appendix at the end of The Real Story in the Gap series), and his own use of leitmotifs doesn't surprise me a bit.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Auleliel wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
As though a big scene or a central character can be summed up with a catchphrase.

Actually, they can. It's called a leitmotif, and is used frequently both in music and literature--especially by such geniuses as Richard Wagner and SRD. (Another example in the Chrons is Covenant's frequent use of "Hellfire and bloody damnation!" or derivatives thereof whenever he's amazed or angry or otherwise highly emotional.) SRD has commented before about his interest in Wagner's music (see the appendix at the end of The Real Story in the Gap series), and his own use of leitmotifs doesn't surprise me a bit.


Hmm, interesting. I haven't connected his interest in Wagner to his rampant use of catchphrases here. While Covenant's "Hellfire and bloody damnation" didn't bother me, Linden's quoting catchphrases in her head to seek guidance does. I don't think they're the same.


Edit to add - actually Covenant's turn of phrase doesn't really fit as a leitmotif I think. A better example would be the Giants' "joy is in the ears that hear" which again I have no problem with. Could it be that it is because that phrase is accompanied by giants saying them? Just as Wagner's leitmotifs are not heard as dissociated independent phrases but are embellished and given backbone within the context of the piece?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:


He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind. I don't really understand what Stave did. He says "The Unbeliever has spoken. You will acquiesce. How otherwise will the Humbled redeem themselves in my sight?" and the Masters redeem themselves by trying to Punch Linden's head off her shoulders and relenting when Stave manages to stop them. I really have no idea what just happened here. Does anyone else understands it and can explain it to me?



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:


He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind. I don't really understand what Stave did. He says "The Unbeliever has spoken. You will acquiesce. How otherwise will the Humbled redeem themselves in my sight?" and the Masters redeem themselves by trying to Punch Linden's head off her shoulders and relenting when Stave manages to stop them. I really have no idea what just happened here. Does anyone else understands it and can explain it to me?



Yeah, me too and I finished the book.
If it's explained anywhere, I missed it.


I'll take a stab at it.

1) the Humbled agreed to abide by Covenant's word
2) Stave is asking how they will redeem themselves in his sight if they violate that agreement, in particular, Spoiler:
how will Galt, his son, redeem himself to his Father if he
violates the agreement and goes against all Haruchai principles
3) the Humbled respond with a challenge to Stave's authority (much like in Gilden Fire) by directing their attack at Linden
4) when Stave is able to stop them, his authority is set and accepted.

Might not be right, but that's sort of how I understand the conflict.

FYI if the Mod wants to remove the spoiler tag that's fine, but since this is "reading along", and I am referring to something later in the book, thought the tag might be wise.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdhopeca wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:


He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind. I don't really understand what Stave did. He says "The Unbeliever has spoken. You will acquiesce. How otherwise will the Humbled redeem themselves in my sight?" and the Masters redeem themselves by trying to Punch Linden's head off her shoulders and relenting when Stave manages to stop them. I really have no idea what just happened here. Does anyone else understands it and can explain it to me?



Yeah, me too and I finished the book.
If it's explained anywhere, I missed it.


I'll take a stab at it.

1) the Humbled agreed to abide by Covenant's word
2) Stave is asking how they will redeem themselves in his sight if they violate that agreement, in particular, Spoiler:
how will Galt, his son, redeem himself to his Father if he
violates the agreement and goes against all Haruchai principles
3) the Humbled respond with a challenge to Stave's authority (much like in Gilden Fire) by directing their attack at Linden
4) when Stave is able to stop them, his authority is set and accepted.

Might not be right, but that's sort of how I understand the conflict.

FYI if the Mod wants to remove the spoiler tag that's fine, but since this is "reading along", and I am referring to something later in the book, thought the tag might be wise.


No, the spoiler is needed because shadowbinding shoe requested it and this is his thread.

Your answer though...... Confused
If Stave failed the block, Galt would have killed Linden with that blow.
Seems like a pretty extreme test.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
rdhopeca wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:


He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind. I don't really understand what Stave did. He says "The Unbeliever has spoken. You will acquiesce. How otherwise will the Humbled redeem themselves in my sight?" and the Masters redeem themselves by trying to Punch Linden's head off her shoulders and relenting when Stave manages to stop them. I really have no idea what just happened here. Does anyone else understands it and can explain it to me?



Yeah, me too and I finished the book.
If it's explained anywhere, I missed it.


I'll take a stab at it.

1) the Humbled agreed to abide by Covenant's word
2) Stave is asking how they will redeem themselves in his sight if they violate that agreement, in particular, Spoiler:
how will Galt, his son, redeem himself to his Father if he
violates the agreement and goes against all Haruchai principles
3) the Humbled respond with a challenge to Stave's authority (much like in Gilden Fire) by directing their attack at Linden
4) when Stave is able to stop them, his authority is set and accepted.

Might not be right, but that's sort of how I understand the conflict.

FYI if the Mod wants to remove the spoiler tag that's fine, but since this is "reading along", and I am referring to something later in the book, thought the tag might be wise.


No, the spoiler is needed because shadowbinding shoe requested it and this is his thread.

Your answer though...... Confused
If Stave failed the block, Galt would have killed Linden with that blow.
Seems like a pretty extreme test.


I suppose, but no more or less extreme that what was done to Cail...or to Stave...and how do we (or the Humbled) *know* Linden won't be able to defend herself?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes rdhopeca, please don't spoil the book for me.

Maybe this is a test of champions. The Masters are championing the UnLindened Covenant while Stave is championing the Lindening.

My only other thought is that, as Stave tells us in the end of RotE, the Masters are unworthy as they currently are in his opinion. The Masters disregard that opinion but they still have self doubt and the inner peace which has allowed him to become the ultimate warrior (better then their three best) makes them heed his opinion.
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