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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Origin Reply with quote

So, I thought we ought to have a separate thread for this subject rather than continue to clutter up other discussions with the idea. I'll get things started...

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God. I'm just using this as a springboard, and not as a means to proffer any ideas about Christianity as such. But these lines are telling for the idea of origin in general and the Chronicles in particular.

That original oneness of God was purely unified. The Word was indistinguishable from the entity speaking the Word. A hermetic consciousness, self-contained, the Word served as a symbol for the extension of the being itself.

The Word. Word, Weird, Wyrd, Wuerd. With the one word of truth, he shall save or damn the Land. The Ur-Lord. TC has been called this since his first arrival in the Land. Ur: not only a city of ancient Sumer, but also denoting original or prototypical. In German, the word for origin or source is Ursprung. Ur. Werd, beginning, ancient, from the source, Worm.

The fact that TC has been dubbed with this title since the beginning (of the Chronicles) is itself telling of how he has ever been perceived. I am not saying that any of the characters did this consciously, or even that SRD did this consciously, no. I'm sure that it fit with whatever subconscious content was flowing through SRD's mind when he crafted this name for our hero from the sound of the word itself.

I also find it interesting that the ur-viles share the same prefix. Why? Because their existence has something to do with origin. Their Weird is tied up in their ancestry, in their origins.

I'll end there, for now. Have more to say, but will be patient and see what comes from other posts...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yet now Creation has become a cluttered thing: A loving Creativity, A foul Despite, A mad Love and a banal Apathy.

I recently run into an anime series called Wolf's Rain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf%27s_Rain), a semi-mythic tale about the end of days. Everyone in it is either listless, hopeless or dreaming of reaching 'paradise', which apparently only wolves are entitled to enter. But reaching paradise is fraught with seemingly insurmountable hurdles and the paradise they find is not the one they imagined. It was based on American-Indian myths about protomen animal-spirits I think. Has anyone else seen it? It rings familiar and may hold some hints to what is to come in these Last Chronicles of the T.C., L.A. and the Land.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like where your going with this thread. Donaldson doesnt seem to be a writer that just throws ideas in the air and hope for the best

if you look at his ravers, you'll see a few underlining concepts that paint a fairly clear picture into their nature.

Jehannum, is the Islamic name for "hell"

Turiya, is the experience for pure consciousness. turiya never changes or evolves to something else. It is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti).

in buddhism, samadhi is mental concentration or composing the mind.

all three of the ravers transcend the dream state of people and control their minds with terror and pain. this is just one example of the research donaldson has done for his books. he's not just another "blow and go" author looking for a paycheck!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

samadhi wrote:

Quote:

It is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti).


Yeah man. And those three beings are separate, and samadhi was rent into even smaller bits. Their names definitely signify. Makes you wonder who named them. Do we know? Was it ever mentioned or hinted at?

Quote:

all three of the ravers transcend the dream state of people and control their minds with terror and pain.


I wonder if the reason they do as they do is because they were once one, but somehow became separate...and they learned despair and despite...seems possible with all that's being revealed. But maybe I'm just misremembering their tale of origin.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
samadhi wrote:

Quote:

It is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti).


Yeah man. And those three beings are separate, and samadhi was rent into even smaller bits. Their names definitely signify. Makes you wonder who named them. Do we know? Was it ever mentioned or hinted at?

Quote:

all three of the ravers transcend the dream state of people and control their minds with terror and pain.


I wonder if the reason they do as they do is because they were once one, but somehow became separate...and they learned despair and despite...seems possible with all that's being revealed. But maybe I'm just misremembering their tale of origin.

I don't recall them all being one thing...but it is important [SRD talks about this in the G.I.] that the signification of the names is [especially the hindu ones] how they view themselves...and also, that whatever they once were they are now less themselves, and more LF's robot minions.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In German, the word for origin or source is Ursprung.


Its the same in swedish. The prefix ur- indicates something that is original, the source, old. I always wondered if Donaldson used this intentionally. Ur-lord would make sense. But ur-viles? The ur-viles should have been the original viles then!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
earthbrah wrote:
samadhi wrote:

Quote:

It is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness: the state of waking consciousness (jagrata), the state of dreaming (svapna), and dreamless sleep (susupti).


Yeah man. And those three beings are separate, and samadhi was rent into even smaller bits. Their names definitely signify. Makes you wonder who named them. Do we know? Was it ever mentioned or hinted at?

Quote:

all three of the ravers transcend the dream state of people and control their minds with terror and pain.


I wonder if the reason they do as they do is because they were once one, but somehow became separate...and they learned despair and despite...seems possible with all that's being revealed. But maybe I'm just misremembering their tale of origin.

I don't recall them all being one thing...but it is important [SRD talks about this in the G.I.] that the signification of the names is [especially the hindu ones] how they view themselves...and also, that whatever they once were they are now less themselves, and more LF's robot minions.


From memory, samadhi (concentration) turiya (pure consciousness) and moksha (liberation) were the names the Ravers chose for themselves, while Jehannum (Hell), Herem (forbidden), and Sheol (grave) were the names given to them by people of the Land.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im failing to remember which book said it but all three ravers were the spirits of lord fouls dead viles, original race that is. in his quest to create the perfect army, they sprang forth from the dead souls that were wasted and broken. each raver's "existence" had been combined from the multitude of twisted essences and formed new sentience. after noticing the positive side effect, he nurtured them and began to use them as his "go to guys".
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How cool would it be if the Ravers,,the freekin Ravers, were some how returned to their Original State.? ..before they learned despite?

I've posted this thought already elsewhere, but repeat the concept here for cohesiveness. The original Surrealists, wanted very much for a man and mankind to regain the uncorrupted state of mind , that of an innocent child, that of,,our primal selves,,that of the metaphorical Adam and Eve still in the Garden...a perspective unencumbered . Access to Imagination,,creativity,,Intuition, et al is hampered, made difficult, by the strictures of the modern way of thinking and perceiving, logic and reason. Our Humanity escapes us as we let logic and reason rule our view and execution of Life.

Andre Breton,,the God Father of Surrealism, spent a good part of his life " investigating" primitive cultures. He was looking to see if indeed, the primitive cultures were closer to Mankinds, " origins" than modern advanced civilized Man was. He spent time in the South Pacific including Australia and investigated the American Indian cultures as well. The aboriginals Spirit Gods fascinated Breton. And what he observed about how the cultures viewed their pantheon of Spirit Gods..how the gods interacted, interrelated with each other and thus with Man..the desire to be One with these Spirits..yea,,a yearning to be back to the Origin, he found common amongst the primitives,,and if you can see it,,a commonality to todays civilized religions ...a yearning for ..Heaven. Maybe its all just Humans wishing for eternal life, giving " death" a different meaning, but in any case, the yearning has always been there. ..return to our Origin, for our Salvation. The Surrealist argued..as masters of our own Brains..We can do it while alive..The unencumbered mind can be made so,,by simple exercises repeated ,,habitualizing ways of mind usage just as we were taught over time the rigors of logic and reason.

Fascinating it is.that down the path of their exploration of their " Surrealism"..this LOVE thing..became very much connected to " Origin" Breton eventually repeated the mantra,,"Everything With Love" at every chance when discussing Surrealism.

Aaah to be liberated into infinity,,a death for this world for sure.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, lemme jack this sucker into third gear here...

First, I like all the above contributions. Let's have a closer look at the ravers first. Samadhi Sheol (or, concentration/grave); turiya Herem (or, pure consciousness/forbidden); and moksha Jehannum (or, liberation/hell). The first names indicate how they view themselves, and the second names reveal how the people of the Land view them. Each combination seems contradictory. Concentration requires activity, while grave indicates rest; pure consciousness implies a union, and is indicative of origin in itself, while forbidden can mean an attempt to keep separate; and liberation is freedom from, while hell is a place or state that is worthy of getting free from.

sammadhi wrote:
Quote:

they sprang forth from the dead souls that were wasted and broken.


The very act of "springing forth" implies origin. Ursprung: literally, sprung from origin. But what I find really interesting about the ravers is that they apparently sprung forth from already fragmented parts of death.

Quote:

each raver's "existence" had been combined from the multitude of twisted essences and formed new sentience.


Now, a comment about the ur-viles: The use of the prefix ur is no mistake here. Think back to FR when Linden spoke to the Viles. Her experience of them was bizarre. They seemed to be one entity in a way, but with different voices that argued and contradicted one another. They did not appear to her as corporeal forms. I'm thinking that the Viles were once "pure" in their original state, and Linden saw them as the process of self-loathing had begun. Doubt had creeped in, and their union began to fragment.
As a result, they created other beings, who in turn created other beings, namely the ur-viles. It's my feeling that the Viles knew what they were doing, even when they had become other than they were. Like Wildwood and the runes, I bet that the Viles had a sort of non-informational resonance in their essence about a future need for redemption/salvation, which for them would imply a return to their original loveliness. Thus, the ur-viles are the enactors of this purpose.


lurch wrote of origin as being uncorrupted and unencumbered, and involving love. I agree. And here I would like to super briefly summarize Jean Gebser's (a cultural philosopher) take on the issue of origin.
Gebser's magnum opus "The Ever Present Origin", or "Ursprung und Gegenwart" in German, goes into great detail of how consciousness consists of structures which mutate over time. Here goes...

The archaic structure of consciousness is that purely original state where early human lived entirely in harmony with nature. External was not seen as such because the experience of unity was so powerful. All was one. Then comes along a mutation, and a new structure emerges.
The magic structure of consciousness reveals that the sweeping collective from the archaic has become fragmented into smaller tribal groups where an individual now has strong psychological ties with the group, but no longer with the whole.
From this structure we mutate into the mythic structure of consciousness. What was unspoken in magic man's mind now becomes vocalized through expressed imagination. The externalization of the psyche goes farther in this stage, and fragmentation of the original unity increases.
And then comes along the mutation that has brought us to our current dominant structure of consciousness: the mental. Now perspective becomes a part of the psyche, and logic and reason rule the mind and its relationship with nature. Cogito ergo sum is like the motto of mental man, and he believes it so completely that his perspective pushes out other aspects of his being/consciousness that are still there.
And that's the thing about these mutations and structures of consciousness: they are not solitary. Each subsequent structure emerges from the previous one, while not dissolving or negating the continued existence and presence of that previous one or ones. Thus, origin is present.
Now, the integral structure is the one that mankind seems on the brink of, and is the one that the Chronicles is moving towards (I believe). This structure is less of a structure, per se, but more of an encompassing quality where one is enabled to experience all the previous structures in a transparent way so as to incorporate them and not be dominated by any one of them.

Salvation: redemption, return, remake, review, revive, resurrect, re...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually these translations of the ravers' names are inaccurate.

It was discussed once here:
http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=263&highlight=herem+sheol+Jehannum

To reiterate what I said there:

Herem is Hebrew for Taboo (or excommunication).

Gehinom would be the Hebrew way of spelling Hell. The approved spelling for the Islamic term seems to be Jahannam. (Vain said that Donaldson's was a variation Kipling used for the Hebrew word).
In addition to the metaphysical meaning it's also a physical place near the Old City of Jerusalem: the valley of Hinnom

Sheol is an older term referring to an underground residence of the dead, the Underworld, (which would be Hades in the Greek mythology).



Vain's translation for the Sanskrit names was:

Turiya=Sanskrit for Free of thoughts
Moksha=Hindu for Enlightenment
Samadhi=Sanskrit for Self Collectedness


I'm not sure how their names connect to their differing roles in the Land's history. Of the three turiya Herem the Kinslaughterer always seemed the worst. So despicable that he was not fit any interaction? Perhaps the fact that Samadhi Sheol is the first to be destroyed connected to the archaic-ism of the word Sheol?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it seems I may have had some of the translations wrong for the raver names. Oh Chronicles, you and your rich details... Very Happy

These Last Chronicles have given us a good deal of information regarding origin stories about races and beings in the Land. Let's see, we've gotten (listed in no particular order)...



1. A good deal of history involving the Viles and their offspring.

2. The Insequent were new to these Last Chronicles, so I'd say we've learned a good bit about them.

3. The giants' gift of tongues (but still no Thelma Twofist and Bahgoon the Unbearable story!).

4. Kastenessen and the Durance.

5. (from FR, iirc) How the Colossus came to be.

6. The Haruchai's history is more explained, especially through their encounter with the Vizard.

What else... Question
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
So it seems I may have had some of the translations wrong for the raver names. Oh Chronicles, you and your rich details... Very Happy

These Last Chronicles have given us a good deal of information regarding origin stories about races and beings in the Land. Let's see, we've gotten (listed in no particular order)...



1. A good deal of history involving the Viles and their offspring.

2. The Insequent were new to these Last Chronicles, so I'd say we've learned a good bit about them.

3. The giants' gift of tongues (but still no Thelma Twofist and Bahgoon the Unbearable story!).

4. Kastenessen and the Durance.

5. (from FR, iirc) How the Colossus came to be.

6. The Haruchai's history is more explained, especially through their encounter with the Vizard.

What else... Question


We did get the bones of the famous Thelma Twofist and Bahgoon the Unbearable story.

The giants couldn't stand Bahgoon so they gave him to Thelma (as a slave?) because she was one mean fighting giantess-machine. They were both horrible but redeemed each other despite everything and found happiness with each other through love.

The Elohim saw it as a story of the Giants' willingness to enslave and give away each other under extreme circumstances while the Giants saw it as a story about the triumph of the giantish spirit over crotchety circumstances.

There's also the original state of the Lower Lands. We get a hint I think with the description of the twisting of the Quellvills from peaceful herbivores and the volcanic remains littering the landscape that seem to be connected to them.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we also learned of the creators female counterpart that foul corrupted. i assumed they were just mirror images in water, one perfect and one distorted. maybe even brothers but their eternal animosity is more detailed than i expected.

another thing learned is also the necessity of balance. if the worm wasn't present, the earth couldn't exist. if the worm wasn't sleeping, the Elohim wouldn't be need to guard him.

i personally never stopped to think about covenants import in the arch. after he was removed, Joan's caesures became larger and more destructive. his participation is the arch's defense wasn't just a pleasant outcome from his death, he strengthened and protected the, at the time, volatile and delicate continuity that had been weakened from all the damage EVERYONE was doing.

all i can think of right now...very tired.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
So it seems I may have had some of the translations wrong for the raver names. Oh Chronicles, you and your rich details... Very Happy

These Last Chronicles have given us a good deal of information regarding origin stories about races and beings in the Land. Let's see, we've gotten (listed in no particular order)...



1. A good deal of history involving the Viles and their offspring.

2. The Insequent were new to these Last Chronicles, so I'd say we've learned a good bit about them.

3. The giants' gift of tongues (but still no Thelma Twofist and Bahgoon the Unbearable story!).

4. Kastenessen and the Durance.

5. (from FR, iirc) How the Colossus came to be.

6. The Haruchai's history is more explained, especially through their encounter with the Vizard.

What else... Question


[Not quite Origins, more backstory but...]

7. Quite a lot of backstory on Lord Foul prior to his coming to the Land
8. On the reasons why the ur-Viles reinterpreted their Wurd/Weird
9. (Not a race but I liked it) the origins of Hurtloam
10. The purpose of the Elohim
11. Quellviks (spelling?)
12. (Again not origins but) the evolution of some of the jeherrin into the Feroce

I feel sure that there will be room for more origins on the Lurker in The Last Dark. Covenant's bargain with the Lurker must play out further in the last volume (his bargains always do!)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, there is more detail to the Ranyhyn's learning " fear", with the link to the Lurker made...and origin of sorts..or a first step away from " origin".

Perhaps, one can see that " origins" does not include the Insequent. Perfection, as everything perfect, does not seem part of Origin. The Insequent seem more about,,endings, rather than Origins in that regard. Seems like Perfection ( Insequent) run along forever until it crosses path with another Perfection ( Insequent). There can only be one Perfect right?

In another regard, what a snap shot into Jeremiahs mind; Buried beneath the gravestones and kept there by the vampieish croyel. As a starting point, an origin, what a place to be...reborn from; the difference from being dead and from being alive. An interesting Origin there. The author has a whole lot to play with there.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've been thinking about this idea of origin more and more, I have come to another possible meaning. Let me use the following quote to illustrate:

"What is at stake here is neither a loss nor a gain, neither an ascent nor a descent, but a re-arrangement or restructuration, a mutative unfolding that is both positive and negative in the terrestrial arena, in other words, in the space-time world where it appears and is fulfilled. But 'outside' this battlefield, arena, scene, and proving ground (to the extent that we can even speak here in appropriate spatializing terms as 'outside'), is located that 'core' which is scarcely touched by terrestrial matters because it is itself only tangential to them. And this 'core' or 'nucleus' is in all likelihood identical to the presence of origin, and as such also forms, shapes and directs each and every individual human being." (Gebser, Ever Present Origin, 1985 translation by Noel Barstad)

So in some sense, every behavior or choice is both an act of and reflection of origin. I'll stick to Jeremiah's rebirth as an example:

We essentially know how he lost his mind, or rather, how and why he buried it deep within his psyche--the maiming of his hand by Foul's manipulation in that bonfire. It would seem as though his mind performed this act of burial in order to protect and preserve what innocence might still be latent in himself. We know it was there the whole time in light of it reemerging after his building of the bone construct.

A rearrangement/restructuration--this is pretty much exactly what Jeremiah did with those quellvisk bones. He rearranged them into a specific structure that served to release his mind from its imprisonment. Of course, he needed serious amounts of Earthpower to pull this off, but...he did it. Through this restructuring of outside elements that affected his internal structuring, he bacame liberated. And this act in itself carries an echo of archaic origin, while also being an original act in itself.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earth..yes..so some questions arise. This state of innocence, its tangentleness, how is Linden to grasp and cope with it..For how long will it last or how strong is the trust of it? Enter the concept of Love? Sure can see the restructuring of..everything, for a whole new world..by the time Jerry is done..yes?

I've wondered how the author would live up to the tradition of liberating all his popular characters by the end of his last book. Perhaps he means to travel down the path of " restructualizing"?
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earthbrah
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many of the events in these Last Chronicles center around laws: the Law of Death, the Law of Life, the Law of Time...wouldn't it then stand to reason that there is also a Law of Creation? And if so, wouldn't such a law inherently include what was once original?

We've had Law Breakers (Elena, Caer Caveral, even Linden); could we find ourselves with a character who would qualify as a Law Maker? Jeremiah's ability is all about building, constructing, making...creating. The broken laws will not be mended and healed, imo. But it's just possible that Jeremiah, through his ability to restructure and rearrange materials, will be able to create a new Law of Creation, or renew it...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthbrah wrote:
So many of the events in these Last Chronicles center around laws: the Law of Death, the Law of Life, the Law of Time...wouldn't it then stand to reason that there is also a Law of Creation? And if so, wouldn't such a law inherently include what was once original?

We've had Law Breakers (Elena, Caer Caveral, even Linden); could we find ourselves with a character who would qualify as a Law Maker? Jeremiah's ability is all about building, constructing, making...creating. The broken laws will not be mended and healed, imo. But it's just possible that Jeremiah, through his ability to restructure and rearrange materials, will be able to create a new Law of Creation, or renew it...

Wink

I think I agree in outline with your conclusion, I'd need more to be sure.

I'm pretty sure you're right about "Laws of Creation" as well. One of the basic conflicts in the series as a whole, I think, is due to them. The Creator cannot touch the thing made afterwards without destroying it. [which the creator has obeyed]. The Creator must abide by the integrity of the creation, or violate its meaning/purpose. [which he disobeyed by trapping 'extra-natural' LF inside the creation.]
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