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High Lord Elena
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TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
I suspect that were Elena not to quest for the Earthblood then Foul would have attained his victory over the Lords just as he predicted he would. The Lords would have put up a valiant resistance against Soulcrusher's army but they would have lost, eventually. Since the Giants were already defeated, Foul could have sent a second Giant-raver to Revelstone and made the victory easier for himself. He would then have begun abusing everyone to force Covenant to give him the ring (which is apparently something that can be only given, not taken).

This would have put Mhoram in a position not to come into his knowledge, though. The krill would have been more rightfully wielded by Elena, as High Lord...but I don't think she would have been able to use it.

Her use of the Earthblood was pretty ill-conceived, I concur. It would have been better used by trying to decimate Soulcrusher's army or asking to have all the missing Wards of Kevin's Lore. *shrug*

We can always try to second-guess the author, though, for what it's worth



Decimating Soulcrusher's army would have a merely temporary beneficial effect. Having all the missing Wards wouldn't do much for a people who have sworn the Oath of Peace, and at best, it would bring the hazard of unearned knowledge.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Decimating Soulcrusher's army would have a merely temporary beneficial effect. Having all the missing Wards wouldn't do much for a people who have sworn the Oath of Peace, and at best, it would bring the hazard of unearned knowledge.


And besides, Kevin had full use of all 7 Wards and they didn't do him much good against Foul and his armies.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it has been quite some time since I last read through Illearth War, unless I am mistaken Foul didn't doo much--if anything at all--about Elena's quest for the Earthblood. I suspect he was already aware that she had her own version of the Ritual in mind, so her goal would work to serve him quite nicely.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Although it has been quite some time since I last read through Illearth War, unless I am mistaken Foul didn't doo much--if anything at all--about Elena's quest for the Earthblood. I suspect he was already aware that she had her own version of the Ritual in mind, so her goal would work to serve him quite nicely.



I don't believe Foul chose to stand in Elena's way even for one second, assuming he was even aware of her quest.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure Fangthane was aware of Elena's quest, and knew he could twist her efforts to suit is ends.. And as such there was no reason for him to oppose her.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjaboy wrote:
I am pretty sure Fangthane was aware of Elena's quest, and knew he could twist her efforts to suit is ends.. And as such there was no reason for him to oppose her.


"Fangthane." Are you a Ramen in disguise? Smile I don't see where he had to twist Elena's efforts at all. She was quite capable of enacting Desecration on her own two feet. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
ninjaboy wrote:
I am pretty sure Fangthane was aware of Elena's quest, and knew he could twist her efforts to suit is ends.. And as such there was no reason for him to oppose her.


"Fangthane." Are you a Ramen in disguise? Smile I don't see where he had to twist Elena's efforts at all. She was quite capable of enacting Desecration on her own two feet. Smile


No, I am no Ramen. If I had the choice to be, however, I would take it in an instant. I do, however, use the Ramen terms 'Fangthane' and 'the Render' as opposed to 'Foul' or 'Corruption' simply because they have always resonated with me - along with 'the Grey Slayer' - as the more powerful and apt ways to refer to 'Lord Foul'.
As for Elena's efforts.. Fangthane did not have to interfere with her efforts to obtain the Power of Command, however he would have had to exert some level of power or influence to ensnare the resurrected High Lord Kevin with the Illearth stone..
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjaboy wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
ninjaboy wrote:
I am pretty sure Fangthane was aware of Elena's quest, and knew he could twist her efforts to suit is ends.. And as such there was no reason for him to oppose her.


"Fangthane." Are you a Ramen in disguise? Smile I don't see where he had to twist Elena's efforts at all. She was quite capable of enacting Desecration on her own two feet. Smile


No, I am no Ramen. If I had the choice to be, however, I would take it in an instant. I do, however, use the Ramen terms 'Fangthane' and 'the Render' as opposed to 'Foul' or 'Corruption' simply because they have always resonated with me - along with 'the Grey Slayer' - as the more powerful and apt ways to refer to 'Lord Foul'.
As for Elena's efforts.. Fangthane did not have to interfere with her efforts to obtain the Power of Command, however he would have had to exert some level of power or influence to ensnare the resurrected High Lord Kevin with the Illearth stone..


Of course, Elena made the first move, and Foul defended himself as he should.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Foul was a big planner.

He had everything planned to the last detail.


He KNEW Covenant had the White gold
He KNEW that the krill would be awoken by its presence
He KNEW that Amok would have shown up, inasmuch as he was on the Council for a time, and knew that Amok was the way and the door to the power of command.

But all that being said, I honestly think that if Elena had not gone with Amok, and stayed to fight, she wold have screwed up, albeit valiantly, just like she did with the POC.
And I think Foul realized the possibility of no one trying to master the Seventh ward; but I'll bet he knew quite a bit about Elena and what she was like.

She might have tried to finish what Mhoram had started and travel to Foul's Cresh, convincing Covenant to travel with her, thinking that the Staff and Covenants ring would be unstoppable.
Covenant would have made the same vow, to not do anything, so he could not be blamed for anything.
It would have ended much the same way...I imagine Elena would have been possessed by a Raver as she neared the Cresh.
Since Ravers with Illearth Stones can possess Giants, I think that they could also possess the wielder of the Staff...especially if that wielder is a little off her rocker.
Hell...perhaps she would have LET a Raver possess her, thinking that she could defeat him from within.

But the outcome would have been the same.
She would be in Foul's possession, holding the Staff of Law. Only she would have been alive.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Of course, Elena made the first move, and Foul defended himself as he should.


drew wrote:
Well, Foul was a big planner.
He had everything planned to the last detail.


Guys, I doubt Foul had any clue that Elena would summon Kevin's ghost and tell it to go attack LF. He may well have figured she'd do something stupid (a pretty sure bet), but to do something as bizarre as she did?

LF was probably like "what the hell?" when High Lord Kevin burst into his thronehall. Then of course, it was an easy matter to master him, especially since the Illearth Stone was sitting right in front of him.

Elena's sheer madness must have given LF a chuckle, though.

drew wrote:

It would have ended much the same way...I imagine Elena would have been possessed by a Raver as she neared the Cresh.
Since Ravers with Illearth Stones can possess Giants, I think that they could also possess the wielder of the Staff...especially if that wielder is a little off her rocker.
Hell...perhaps she would have LET a Raver possess her, thinking that she could defeat him from within.
But the outcome would have been the same.
She would be in Foul's possession, holding the Staff of Law. Only she would have been alive.


I don't think anyone holding the Staff of Law can be posessed by a Raver. If they could, Foul would have ordered samadhi or one of his brothers to possess Drool Rockworm at the start of the Chronicles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But she may have LET the Raver possess her.
Thinking that she could gain more of the insight that Mhoram gained when he just touched a Raver.

I do think its safe to assume, that Foul pretty much knew that she was going to use the POwer of Command though...what her command would be? Perhpas he didn't know.

But the Ranyhyn knew; even when she was a little girl, didn't they?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow i read the Illearth War 24 years ago when i was 13. Absolutely loved the book and dont think SRD has bettered it since.
The land then felt like something to fight for, unspoilt, threatened, the lords discovering the old wards, the horror of seareach, the lurker, the bloodguard, hile troy acting as a mirror to covenant - saying the things i used to scream at him to help them all. it just got to me and i devoured the whole thing.
top of the list was Elena, i fell head over heels in love, i literally cried when she was lost, i couldnt believe TC left her to die and all the avenues of help for her dried up. a glimmer when hile troy tried to save her, but snatched away by the forestal. i felt numb and read ahead in the book trying, hoping that she would be ok. i remember also getting frustrated that the story would flit to and from hiles pov as i wanted to know what happened to Elena, the suspense killed me and part of me knew but hoped i was wrong that something bad lay in wait for her. it still affects me years later. im almost angry at SRD for creating a such a loving complex, passionate, noble, brave and ultimatley fragile woman and then treating her so badly over all the subsequent books. covenant, mhoram, hile troy all of them were in love with her and yet noone helped or showed her the care she deserved. she was always a lost girl looking for love to me.
Even though the romance was taboo with TC it felt more romantic and passionate than several books of Linden Avery who always seemed uncomplicated and made similar choices but was always validated a bit like the A-team, Linden would always be ok and get it right. We already had that with TC. i always felt that was a weakness in the writing for me i loved the fact that Elena was on a knife edge it drove up the anxiety and concern for her. Linden could do no wrong and my poor Elena no right even though her heart and love for the land and TC drove her to try and save them all.
to his credit SRD created the only book character i even had romantic feelings and a real emotional response for, i hope she is saved and cared for one day Wink ahhhhhh
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Jonnyredleader - I'm fillin' up reading your clearly empassioned post regarding Elena. I agree with you (I think) 100%. Elena was a charachter worthy of love, no-matter where it came from. Linden struggles to match up to her in so many different ways that it is difficult to see quite where his love for her (Linden) comes from. Linden is in many ways simple in her complexity (if this makes sense) and I agree Donaldson's clear intention that she is always going to be right in the long run can become a bit tedious. The Elenas of this world who fail by virtue of their pure human falability are much more becoming as charachters and in my opinion the story had quite enough of emotionally tortured a charachter in TC without introducing another one. The boarderline incestuous relationship that developed with TC effectivly sealed Elena's fate in that it would have been a difficult one to come back from - though not impossible, as we saw with Lena. But yes, I will join you as one that will always mourn the passing of Elena in the way it happened and would have liked very much for posterity to have been a little kinder to her.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
I can't describe it, even 24 years later when she appears in subsequent books I hope she can be saved and yet again SRD heaps even more tragedy on her.
I've never had as strong an emotional response to a character as Elena and her part in the chronicles, it's almost embarrassing. But it's there and I think SRD weaved a lot of magic and human understanding into that character, just look at the way Hile Troy behaves towards her, even Mhoram is in love albeit quietly.
SRD knew what he was doing and he broke my 13 year old heart when she fell. Maybe it was the tragedy, the unfettered, unabashed, open love she had or the knowledge deep down that she was doomed and her affection for TC would be abused and used by him selfishly. I just was numb for days, I wanted to crawl in grab the ring and save her. Maybe the teenage hormones didn't help either Hahahaha
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnyredleader wrote:
Spoiler:
I can't describe it, even 24 years later when she appears in subsequent books I hope she can be saved and yet again SRD heaps even more tragedy on her.
I've never had as strong an emotional response to a character as Elena and her part in the chronicles, it's almost embarrassing. But it's there and I think SRD weaved a lot of magic and human understanding into that character, just look at the way Hile Troy behaves towards her, even Mhoram is in love albeit quietly.
SRD knew what he was doing and he broke my 13 year old heart when she fell. Maybe it was the tragedy, the unfettered, unabashed, open love she had or the knowledge deep down that she was doomed and her affection for TC would be abused and used by him selfishly. I just was numb for days, I wanted to crawl in grab the ring and save her. Maybe the teenage hormones didn't help either Hahahaha


Of course Hile Troy would have become another Landwaster if the forestal hadn't intervened to prevent him from saving or trying to save Elena. That's especially true if he failed to save her. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, I just felt sorry for her. Although she made her own decisions and always had her own agenda regarding the old lords and their wards I just felt that she was always going to be doomed whatever she did, it was painful to slowly realise and be unable to stop it.
It's also painful that there are so many contradictions in the actions of characters especially later books, she did exactly what TC did and what Linden did, she did what she thought was right and not out of despair.
She took the fight to foul and made the wrong decision, she was abandoned by those she loved most, I don't know linden ripped apart the arch of time! Elenas infallibility was what made her more alluring in my and the lords eyes. She was her fathers daughter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnyredleader wrote:
Agreed, I just felt sorry for her. Although she made her own decisions and always had her own agenda regarding the old lords and their wards I just felt that she was always going to be doomed whatever she did, it was painful to slowly realise and be unable to stop it.
It's also painful that there are so many contradictions in the actions of characters especially later books, she did exactly what TC did and what Linden did, she did what she thought was right and not out of despair.
She took the fight to foul and made the wrong decision, she was abandoned by those she loved most, I don't know linden ripped apart the arch of time! Elenas infallibility was what made her more alluring in my and the lords eyes. She was her fathers daughter


I'm sure we all feel that way about Elena's fate. I don't understand the reference to Linden ripping apart the Arch. That almost sounds like a Last Dark spoiler except it hasn't happened yet.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
I don't think anyone holding the Staff of Law can be posessed by a Raver. If they could, Foul would have ordered samadhi or one of his brothers to possess Drool Rockworm at the start of the Chronicles.


There is no way that Lord Foul would let a Raver possess someone holding the Staff of Law, even if that were possible. That would give the Raver too much power and there is no way to guess the extent of their lore--the Raver might get ideas about trying to overthrow their master.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops sorry, I've removed it

Last edited by jonnyredleader on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonnyredleader, this is a 1st and 2nd Chronicles Forum. Final Chronicles details should either be left out, or be spoiler marked
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