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The owner of the ring

 
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Smirnoff
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: The owner of the ring Reply with quote

Fellow fans,

here's a question for those of you who possess more lore than Smirnoff (ok, not a big deal). This affects the very last few pages of the 2nd Chronicles (and most of the Last, but there's no spoiler here).

If the wild magic of the white ring belongs only to the owner and can be triggered by someone else only if the owner gives it out of free will, how can Linden use it (and "inherit" it), since its last owner (or at least user) was Lord Foul (who by any means did not intend it to give it to Linden)? Foul was just too weak to wear and use the ring, but not dead, so it would remain in his availability... or can Covenant decide who and when and how much can use his white gold?

(now that I think of it, there's a striking resemblance to the Harry Potter's Elder Wand tale!)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very complex question. Or frustrating question. Depending on how you like your answers served: clean cut, or mashed.

The short answer is that ownership is in part determined by giving, and in part relies on Covenant's identity being inherent in the ring. Donaldson seems to have it both ways, in what some would describe as complex, and others would describe as inconsistent.

Rather than repeat things, check out these threads:

-- Isn't Foul the rightful weilder of the ring (Fatal Revenant Forum)

-- Ownership of the ring?
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Smirnoff
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your answer!

Um, I did not go thoroughly through the Fatal Revenant section looking for a topic like this one (it does not inherently belong there, I thought it as a more general question).
But...
I owe you my apologies, I missed the second link ("ownsership of the ring"), I thought I had gone through all the topics in this section but did not notice that one. I should have known better, I could not be the very first one to come up with the question.

Hope to come up with more useful stuff...
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries, Smirnoff. New insights in to older discussions are always welcome; wf was guiding you to discussion already done so you can add to it. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Menolly wrote:
No worries, Smirnoff. New insights in to older discussions are always welcome; wf was guiding you to discussion already done so you can add to it. Smile

Emphasis on "add".

Smirnoff wrote:
(now that I think of it, there's a striking resemblance to the Harry Potter's Elder Wand tale!)

Not to mention Deathly Hallow = Fatal Revenant!
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Smirnoff wrote:
(now that I think of it, there's a striking resemblance to the Harry Potter's Elder Wand tale!)

Not to mention Deathly Hallow = Fatal Revenant!

Y'all are always welcome in the JKR forum. It's been quiet in there lately.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the salient point here is that at the climax of the Second Chronicles Covenant owned Lord Foul and the ring. LF did exactly what Covenant wanted him to do, with exactly the consequences Covenant expected, including letting the ring fall so that Linden could use it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was all covered in The Last Dark in a conversation between Covenant and Linden. Suffice it to say it explained a lot of this.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:06 am    Post subject: Ownership Reply with quote

Is not Covenant reminded on multiple occasions that he is, in fact, the white gold / wild magic? I always got the impression that wild magic was as much about Covenant himself as it was about the ring.

By the same token, in the SC's, it is Linden Avery's basic essence, her percipience, that provides the ultimate salvation, not whatever implements she picks up along the way - although the ring and the SoL mark II sure help.

I just have the feeling that magic is in the people and that whether Covenant is "rage passing" the ring to Hile Troy or setting Foul up for destruction, he is not reliquishing the basic fact that he is the wild magic. Even Glimmermere recognized him at the end Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer to this is monumental, because it encapsulates the essence of the entire series.

In the Land, magic isn't something that some people just do. It's lore. But what is lore? Lore is the collective knowledge, wisdom, or beliefs of a people, particularly transmitted orally as a mythic history. Lore isn't just a set of knowledge, but often defines the central character of a people, the roots of their culture, how they see themselves, how they should behave, and what they ought to strive for.

This is why the magic of each race , or discernible group in the Land (and greater world), is so unique and different, because it runs to the root of who they are as a people. And this lore is almost always expressed through the spoken word. In the Land, words are powerful.

This is why even the Haruchai, deny it as they might, also have their own kind of lore. Most notably, it is seen in their vow to serve the Lords. This vow has such power that it grants them immortality, needing to neither eat nor sleep. And why? Because this lore goes to the heart of who they are as a people. They live to prove their prowess in physical combat, and refuse to be outdone in anything.

We can see how a commitment to a way of life impedes one's ability to gain access to lore when the Lords of the First Chronicles are unable to re-learn Kevin's Lore because of their commitment to the Oath of Peace. Mastery of Kevin's Lore would require them to abandon who they have become.

We see again in the Ur-Viles, how a change in understanding of who they are, and what they might attain to, changes the very magic they wield. When they reinterpret their wurd, when they reinterpret themselves, they formulate new lore as well.

The reason Covenant's magic is "wild" magic is because Covenant himself is in the middle of an internal contradiction, a paradox of choice, believe in the Land, and therefore be required to save it, but also therefore damn himself to insanity, or save his own sanity by disbelieving in the Land, and therefore abusing it the way he abused Lena, and therefore damning it. Either way, he couldn't live with himself, because he would either go insane from a Leper's hope, or go insane from the tide of guilt that would sweep over him. His answer is therefore non-participation, a suspension of belief. In the end, this turns out to be no different than disbelieving in the Land, and he is forced to participate in its salvation.

This was the central revelation that Mhoram had. It's how he came to understand why they could not master Kevin's lore, and how he came to understand that Covenant himself was the white gold. The white gold was just an instrument to express the magic, but the magic itself is derived from his being, from who he is.

And this is the same reason that the ring has to be freely given, because in order to be able to wield a lore that one does not know, one must have the participation of the wielder of that lore, because the lore itself is derived from who they are.

And that's really the essential story. Thomas Covenant, a writer, creator of worlds, has a scourge enter his life, leprosy, a foul disease that lays waste to everything he loves, and is the source of people's despite. It destroys his marriage, a covenantal bond of love.

Then, he enters this world where words themselves have power, as a marriage vow should, but he is unable to believe in it, as a doubting Thomas. This has implications for the final chronicles that I'd love to talk about further, but won't because it's not appropriate here.... anyway that's the long of it. And no, I don't to TL;DRs.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you do talk about it further. That was well thought out.

Picthwife said something along similar lines.

In The One Tree was wrote:
Linden shrugged away his disclaimer. "Then what you're saying," she murmured slowly, "is that the power of wild magic comes from Covenant himself? The ring is just his - his means of articulation?"

He nodded. "I believe that to be sooth. But the means controls intimately the nature of what may be expressed. By my pitch I may accomplish nothing for the knitting of broken limbs, just as no theurgy of the flesh may seal stone as I do."

The way one chooses to express one's power - which is lore, in a sense - limits what you can do with your power, while at the same time it provides the very means to use power at all.

Donaldson says the same thing about Time, as it happens. It limits us, but those limits allow us to exist at all.

We require limits to thrive.

This applies to wild magic as much as anything else. Covenant's lore - his means of articulation - is tied indelibly to his marriage vow. This unlocks his power in some ways, and limits it in others. Nothing less than a vow - a giving as a symbol of commitment - is required to handle this power.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The limits to a particular power can allow that power to focus more effectively on what it CAN do, it seems. Fascinating thought.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to think of a garden hose, which is kind of silly in a way. But the more constrained the water is, the more powerful is the result. Which, in a way, expresses that, Cord Hurn.

I also think of skeletons. Muscles don't work as well without being attached to a skeleton. And so rigidity and structure lend themselves towards motion and dexterity. (No offence to any octopi who are reading this.)
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