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Malazan Issues (Spoilers)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:44 am    Post subject: Malazan Issues (Spoilers) Reply with quote

As you may or may not know, I'm reading the sweries again in preparation for TCG. And there have always been little things that bugged me here and there, mainly internal consistency. So I'm trying to keep a note of them this time round.

I'll add to this as I read, but here's what I got so far.

Karsa

In DHG, (1163ish) Leoman says that Karsa is 17, and that he's killed 40 odd people. Then in HoC, in the beginning, (1159), Karsa is in his 80th year, and just come to manhood.

How old is he actually? (And how big is he?...he doesn't seem that big in DHG, but in HoC full grown adult faces are scaled to that of a new-born Teblor, and the full-blood Toblokai (in the well) is described as about 3 times the size of a large man.)

Grub/Keneb

In HoC, Keneb introduces Grub (aged 3ish?) as an orphan Duiker put into his care at the conclusion to the Chain of Dogs, and who had nobody else to look after him.

In DHG though, Duiker gives Keneb a female infant, and later, Keneb is on the way to tell Duiker that the child's grandfather has been found when he realises the truth about Mallick Rel.

So, where did Grub come from then?

--A
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Leomans comments about Karsa"s age were meant in a " dog years" kind of sense, the same way young Frodo Baggins was 50. Longevity as a racial characteristic .
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that did occur to me. Seems needlessly pointless though...a year is a year, whether you live for 50 years or a hundred...the earth has revolved around the sun once.

That whole "dog years" thing is nonsense. It's people's way of trying to come to terms with the fact that dogs have a shorter lifespan. We don't have hamster years do we?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It fits with the Teblor's views of low landers as children. I have to admit it took me a while to like the character of Karsa Orlong, for exactly that reason. Until it became apparent that his intent wasnt really to slaughter actual children, but the low landers enslaving his people. I guess my point is that the Teblor see themselves as bigger people with longer lives , and comparing their life spans to actual humans may require a condensed version. That or Leoman just didnt know, and lying was easier than explaining, or admitting that he didnt know.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm going for the second.

However, Karsa's intent wasn't to kill people enslaving his people...when he set out, he didn't know people were enslaving some of the other tribes. He just went to win glory for himself.

I think HoC might just have re-established itself as my favourite...

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn it. I know I've got an issue with the timeline for Moranth munitions. Sure I read something about the alliance having lasted a long time, since a certain date, but other mentions make the munitions seem more recent.

Also, there's no date at the beginning of TtH...and in Reapers Gale, somebody, (Seren? Udinaas?) says something about the end of their years long quest.

Lotta tragedy in RG.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, seems like Erikson stopped using dates when he found out he couldn't keep them straight. Wink

But yeah, I'm pretty sure Silchas Ruin implied that he and his group were wondering about since the end of MT to the beginning of RG (and beyond! Razz )

Moranth are a little confusing. But hey, they could have only had the munitions when they've been on Genabeckis... and I don't remember if that was a continent that the Emperor was involved with invading...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kellanved, you mean? Hmm, good point. Genabackis might have been the previous guy.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I remember, the Moranth were a very isolated and secretive culture descended from Imass and Toblakai stock much like the Barghast, who had been living hidden in their woods on Genabackis for a very long time. The Black Moranth were the first to make deals with outsiders and reveal their munitions - which they did sometime after the Malazan Empire arrived on the continent.

Now as for dating the Malazan invasion itself, I can't quite say - in Gardens of the Moon they already controlled the northern part of the continent. The invasion and expansion across the north either had not begun or had not reached far a few decades before Karsa Orlong descended from the mountains in House of Chains (he was captured sometime before the siege of Pale, and was being transported through the northern regions to the coast when Pale fell).

We can probably get more specific from Fiddler's recollection in The Bonehunters about what occurs when Moranth munitions meet Otataral - the conflagration he refers to occured during the conquest of Seven Cities. We know the Seven Cities conquest occured while Kellanved was still nominally Emperor, but probably the events on the otataral isles took place while he and Dancer were on their travels. (Kellanved was absent when the T'lan Imass were used to slaughter one of the resisting cities, though it's possible he did in fact sit the First Throne to give that order.)

We can be pretty certain, then, that the first contact with the Moranth, and the first use of munitions outside of the Moranth's own secretive culture, was during the earliest stages of the Genabackan campaign, while most of the Empire's strength was focused on conquering the last remaining portions of Seven Cities.

So, given that Fiddler is in his 40s, and the Night of Knives was about 17 years prior to the beginning of the series, my guess would put it somewhere between 20 and 30 years before Gardens of the Moon.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't KoN about 7 years before GotM? (Well, the prologue of GotM?

Say, in DHG, wasn't Challice a D'Arl? In TtH, it says she was once an Etraysian (sp?).

Also, we meet Karsa's daughters here...I remember Ali or Duchess had a problem with this.

Now, IIRC, (I wrote it down, but that's at home) HoC starts in 1159. That's when Karsa goes on his raid. Now his daughters are a year or two shy of adulthood. So that would make them 15 or 16ish. That would make HoC 1174. (Ruin's years long quest?)

It also creates a problem with HoC saying Karsa was an adult at 80 though.

The idea that it's a comparative to "human years" doesn't work. Otherwise they wouldn't see the humans as short-lived.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We already know Midnight Tides began about 4 years prior to House of Chains and ended about 2 years before it. Reaper's Gale takes place a little over 6 months after the end of Bonehunters, because that's how long the Bonehunters have been at sea before they land in Letheras. So Silchas and Udinaas and the others have been wandering around the subcontinent for between 2 and 3 years.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karsa was all ready pretty 'old' when he left... at least forty, according to my perceptions. The whole Toblaki age thing is pretty crazy... it's almost like they reach adolescence at the same time as humans do, but stay there for 30 years.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karsa's age was stated early in HoC to be 70 or 80, IIRC. He had only lately come of age.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. It was 80 in HoC and he'd just come of age. But as I point out above, Leoman tells Heboric that he's 17.

Now, 80 for a Toblokai might be the same as 17 for a human, but it's still 80 revolutions around the sun.

Now, his daughters might be just short of adulthood, (80), but it sure hasn't been 80 years since the beginning of HoC.

(You sure it was only 6 months the Bonehunters were at sea? I thought it was more like a year.)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now, 250 odd pages later, Challice was a D'Arle again. Laughing

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
And now, 250 odd pages later, Challice was a D'Arle again. Laughing

--A


Why not both? One from her father, the other from her mother... making her a mutt! (but a pure-blood one at that Smile)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SRD wrote:
Internal consistency's a bitch.

Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orlion wrote:
Avatar wrote:
And now, 250 odd pages later, Challice was a D'Arle again.


Why not both? One from her father, the other from her mother... making her a mutt! (but a pure-blood one at that Smile)


Turns out her father's first name is Etraysian. Laughing

Say, do we know who Redmask was?

--A
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:

Say, do we know who Redmask was?

--A


I always thought he was just Redmask, that he was adopted after being found in the wreckage of a caravan, or something like that. I don't think there's any Letheri that we met that decided to take up the Redmask mantle.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, he wasn't supposed to be a recognisable individual, just a tragic figure when it is revealed that his overzealous hatred of the Letheri comes from the fact that he is a Letheri and was treated like crap his entire life by his tribe for being one. He's a frustrated child who uses the tribes to take out his issues, ultimately leading to their destruction and his death.
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