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Unfettered by the Last Chronicles
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ussusimiel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
On the Sandgorgons: you missed some things


I will bow to your superior knowledge as Nom bowed to Covenant. I suppose that the Sandgorgons would obey the wielder of White Gold, but Linden was using the Staff in the incident I'm talking about, not wild magic. If there is more that I have missed please bring it to my attention (so long as it doesn't spoil any of the rest of FR or AATE)

As regards what you accurately describe as a power formula, that is how it feels to me now. In this particular incident it was a complicated equation involving (if I can remember them all) Linden + the Staff, Roger + Kastenessen, the Harrow, Esmer, the Ur-viles and the Wayhnim.

Linden tipped the balance by calling in the Sandgorgons. I understand the constant interrogation of power that is at the heart of the Chrons (and maybe all of SRD's work) but personally I learnt nothing new from this particular incident.

And if it was a way to introduce the Sandgorgons then why weren't they foregrounded more in the fight? Why wasn't their arrival more dramatic?

I'd have preferred a straight fight between Linden and Roger + the Cavewight Army with the Sandgorgons' arrival tipping the balance. Linden could have had a nice visit at First Woodhelven and we could be on our way to Salva Gildenbourne for a look at Sunder and Hollian's work. And maybe too that is part of it. Maybe we are not supposed to enjoy the Land in the Final Chrons.

I may be just a simple fruit longing for the good old days,

u.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:

The Twilight series may have arrived too late for you. I have been told that the it holds such a fascination for young teenage women because of the unmistakably sexual overtones. The attractive vampiric/wolfish young male figures reflects a balance to the overly romantic idealised female version of sexuality. This is a good thing I am told as it may lead to a more realistic midrange version. Don't see it myself, but what would a cynical older male like myself know about such things Laughing


I doubt it--considering that I've never been interested in the so-called chick lit, and before my mid-to-late-teens classics phase, ranging from various Russian authors to Victor Hugo to Cervantes Saavedra, I mostly coveted authors like Lovecraft and Poe. Twisted Evil

I can enjoy good romance as much as anyone--provided that it twists out into some extra dimension from the usual 'a pretty girl finds a handsome boy', or completely overthrows existing tropes. This is probably why The First/Pitchwife turned me into a puddle of pink mush: it's so different, aside from the obvious fact that the characters' inner natures lead the way, rather than all attention revolving around Gossamer's pretty keister. Almost the same I could state about TC/LA; it's certainly much more interesting than something dragged out of a typical soap opera episode. Moreover, I've never liked teen romance, not even at that crucial age, preferring to read about mature characters with some life experience.

Bella/Edward, now...the previous is interested in this sparkly-warkly piece of mythology-mangling merely because he's so handsome (and/or smells good, don't recall exactly whether this was Bella or Edward's excuse). There's no intellectual connection or simple friendship, nothing beyond the shoddily depicted hankering for some horizontal humppa. Besides, Eddie floats far off from the shores of this 'wonderful, desirable model of a man' he's claimed to be; in truth he's jealous, possessive (for instance, at one point breaks Bella's car, so that she can't visit her friend...), drives Bella suicidal, among other idiotic things. Jacob Black seems like the only character that might've had some potential--but no, since he can't win Bella to his side in the end, he imprints himself with her infant daughter (ie. decides that Renesmee is his future mate. O_o). Incidentally, this is why the anti-fandom has named Jacob 'Pedowulf'. Indeed, in Breaking Dawn, the plot becomes such a huge, blinking incarnation of WTF that I kept bursting into involuntary fits of snerking over the sheer ludicrousness of it all.

I agree it's important to get kid poring over books. I've heard that in many countries reading has become a boulder-like yoke for most youngsters. TV and computer games don't expressly explain this phenomenon, though; it's more like the encouragement or the lack of it children receive from home.
Yet Twilight I wouldn't recommend to anyone; it reeks of plain bad writing and germinates grammar errors in every other paragraph. If asked, I could fairly fast produce a list of other YA/children's fantasy fiction with intelligent, vocabulary-enhancing content, although rather meager on the subject of sex/romance. XD I don't have children myself, but I read such novels every once in a while just to lighten up or enjoy the quirky humor of some authors (Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus series being one of my present-time favorites).

Quote:
As to Harry Potter, I acknowledge the richness of the world and the characters. What I personally can't take is the writing which is obviously for teenagers. I suppose what I don't understand is why so many adults enjoy them so much. I am instantly bored by the writing and the story.


Well, I have several friends of my own age who love the Potter series, and much of this has to do with the wealth of characters and humor. Any work containing such intentional jokes and punditry that make me repeatedly laugh so much that my cheeks ache receives a fair deal of appreciation from me. Suppose this again comes down to being best pals with my inner 12-year-old. Wink

Yet I'm similarly baffled by the massive popularity of Twilight among 30-something women, so-called Twimoms, many of whom decide to name their kiddies after the main characters or even decorate their skins with tattoos of 'touching quotes'. Believe me; these do exist in ample amounts. I've often heard the phrase that HP fans will like Twilight, but none of my friends has done so; where HP brought actual tears into my eyes, Twilight merely induced incessant groaning, headdesking, and, well, what I mentioned above about unwittingly ridiculous passages. The same I could express about identifying with characters. The main trio of Twilight radiates such blatant marysueness that they don't feel like real people.

Nevertheless, regarding the simplicity of the language/storytelling in HP, I might understand why someone favoring more complex texts could be turned down by it.

On some level, I'm still glad that I suffered through the ordeal of reading those bloody tree-killers; elsewise, I would've missed slews of hilarious or insightful conversations, including this. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:

And if it was a way to introduce the Sandgorgons then why weren't they foregrounded more in the fight? Why wasn't their arrival more dramatic?

Just speculation on this: but I think it's because the real dramatic Sandy stuff is yet to come...that this really was just an introduction, and exposition of their "personality" change since last we saw them.

On this
Zorm wrote:
I agree it's important to get kid poring over books. I've heard that in many countries reading has become a boulder-like yoke for most youngsters

I'm not at all sure reading bad writing is a good thing just cuz "at least they're reading." Though, from the other end, I don't think there's any inherent value in requiring Shakespeare, either.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:

On this
Zorm wrote:
I agree it's important to get kid poring over books. I've heard that in many countries reading has become a boulder-like yoke for most youngsters

I'm not at all sure reading bad writing is a good thing just cuz "at least they're reading." Though, from the other end, I don't think there's any inherent value in requiring Shakespeare, either.


Well, I did say I wouldn't recommend Twilight to anyone. Wink Which, in its essence, means that I'd prefer to see people reading quality literature over über-hyped, meaningless fluff swarming with various stupidities.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorm wrote:
Yet I'm similarly baffled by the massive popularity of Twilight among 30-something women

I have remembered another thing about the Twilight series that my friend (who is into shamanism) pointed out as interesting. She said that the series engaged in the investigation of the need for an alliance between the mind/spirit and the body/animal. I found this idea intriguing as I have been becoming more and more fascinated with the mystery and potentials of the body.

The vampire/werewolf elements relate to the unrestrained drives of the body (mostly sexual and violent in nature). She said that the books deal with this ever-present (urgent in our current society) tension in an unusally open way. I respect her opinion about these things and, since I tend to favour the rational over the emotive, I have to restrain my knee-jerk reaction to dismiss them as pulpy teenage bilge. (Still couldn't ever read them though Big Grin )

u.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished FR for the first time mainly due to the encouragement I got from posters here. Thanks again!

SRD really did throw the kitchen sink at it. I've been reading some more of the GI and he even says that about the battle at First Woodhelven. And by the end of the book just about everybody has turned up: Giants, Sandgorgons, Elena, Kevin, Infelice and Covenant himself. If he threw in an arghule, a sur-jheherrin, a Forestal and one of the Unfettered (I'd have loved that Mr. Green ) then we'd have had the whole set.

As I was reading FR I was also reading more of the threads here, some of the SI's and the GI. Even though I'm still not gone on the books I have come to a better understanding (I think) of why SRD wrote them and why most people like them.

In terms of the writing I understand better the difficulty I have with it. One thread that helped me was: http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=144694#144694

On that thread Ard Rhys makes the following couple of points.

Ard Rhys wrote:
You are still missing one thing: The Land is absent. The Land as the character that we know and love. It is non-existent in this first book. Why? Because the writing does not bring it to life.


This is something that I had intuitively felt but couldn't articulate. I missed the Land from the books. Kevin's Dirt can be used as an explanation but even Andelain doesn't shine the way it did in the other Chrons.

Ard Rhys wrote:
Quote:
She knew where she was. Oh, she knew. Her brief look around had shown her the truth. The echo of Jeremiah's name had confirmed it. She had been here once before, then years and a lifetime ago. This stone circle with its parapet was Kevin's Watch, a platform carved into the pinnacle of a leaning stone spire high above the line of hills which divided the South Plains from the Plains of Ra.



Donaldson is completely lost in a character's head. The fault here is that overly simplistic and yet always part of writing SHOW, DON'T TELL.


This again articulates something that I had felt about the Final Chrons. A huge amount of what goes on goes on inside Linden's head and we are told stuff again and again rather than shown it. Now that I understand this I am more okay with it.

So it's off to do something that I never though I'd do, buy a copy of Against All Things Ending. Wish me luck as I continue my unfettered way through the Final Chrons.

u.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Unfettered by the Last Chronicles Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
This thread is for those poor souls like myself who, although I am a total fan of the 1st and 2nd Chronicles, can't read the Last Chronicles because of a combination of the nature of the writing, the character of Linden and the feeling that there is no necessity for the books to be written at all.



usussimiel


Reading the 3rd Chronicles has given me the impression that the final (tetrad) story has had to be greatly magnified; in character, dialouge, scope, even diction. It is written that way for an effect, and a purpose of which Linden, not Covenant, is mainly effected by. She being the physician, and Covenant the leper. A very important necessity, for the outcome and resolution of Thomas Covenant, Lord Foul, and of course Linden Avery!

Of course, I wonder if that is just the result of reading those books in mainstream hardback. I'd like to read the 3rd Chronicles again in paperback format - they way (SRD has said in the GI) they were intended to be published and read.

Wishing you good luck for Against All Things Ending

KK
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ussusimiel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hail Krazy Kat!

Always good to meet Watcher I haven't met before (although I have read some of your posts and traded haikus with you Big Grin )

Thanks for adding your views into the mix. I am reading the Final Chrons in paperback so I hope I'm getting the full authentic experience.

AATE here I come!

u.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got my copy of AATE, so I'll be posting a bit on this thread again!

[EDIT: Finished the first couple of chapters of AATE, but I've just realised that I can't post about it here. Guess I'll just have to go join the AATE forum and start a thread there!]

u.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorm wrote:
Khazduk wrote:
In my mind, this leads to a conclusion: works that incite of a lot of debate and reactions, must probably have some element of "good" in them (good as in "quality", not as in "vs evil"). And the greatest works are those that will continue to inspire emotion, debate and reactions for generations.


I'm still stubbornly standing on my opinion that Twilight merits no praise whatsoever, no matter how much heated debate it creates. Laughing

Now I'm going to get all the T-fans on KW after me, yelling, “Slay her! Are you fools!”


All the Twilight fans on Kevin's watch???

I'd be suprised and disappointed if there were any twilight fans here..
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjaboy wrote:
Zorm wrote:
Khazduk wrote:
In my mind, this leads to a conclusion: works that incite of a lot of debate and reactions, must probably have some element of "good" in them (good as in "quality", not as in "vs evil"). And the greatest works are those that will continue to inspire emotion, debate and reactions for generations.


I'm still stubbornly standing on my opinion that Twilight merits no praise whatsoever, no matter how much heated debate it creates. Laughing

Now I'm going to get all the T-fans on KW after me, yelling, “Slay her! Are you fools!”


All the Twilight fans on Kevin's watch???

I'd be suprised and disappointed if there were any twilight fans here..


It was a joke. Wink

On the other hand, you never know about people (hey, I watch cartoons...).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did read the books. They're perfectly decent books, regardless of people's opinions about the characters. There is a great deal of deus ex machina going on, which tends to annoy me. Just as a minor point, Edward doesn't drive Bella to anything. Her breakdown is in response to his leaving, not in response to stupid things like his sabotaging her car. It is certainly stupid that she had a breakdown because he left, but I know someone who went into a kind of fugue state when her fiance dumped her. I knew a person in high school who got a bad haircut and refused to leave her house for months. Technically, the haircut was certainly not the cause but it must have been the last straw. People actually do these kinds of things. It doesn't matter if it's not YOU who would, or if you think people who do are ridiculous. Anyone with real problems would want to throttle you for belittling their state of mind.

I don't like that Edward became the center of Bella's existence. I don't like that she started doing dangerous things because, for some silly reason (called writer's idea) it caused her to hallucinate that Edward was talking to her and telling her not to do this. The writer did make it clear that he was not, meaning her own sense of self-preservation was talking to her and she was ignoring it because the writer thought that was neat.

Er... yeah. So, anyway, it seems the book "50 Shades of Gray" is now the big popular thing and, I read, that it started off as a Twilight fanfic. My neighbor bought one. I read the first three pages and every paragraph is so painful.... ugh.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tefazipipo wrote:
So, anyway, it seems the book "50 Shades of Gray" is now the big popular thing and, I read, that it started off as a Twilight fanfic. My neighbor bought one. I read the first three pages and every paragraph is so painful.... ugh.

I just read an article about that book on the bbc site last week and it made me want to write an erotic novel and become rich! Frostheart has requested a sample of some of my erotic writing involving Linden, some giants and an urvile. it is very steamy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ananda wrote:
Tefazipipo wrote:
So, anyway, it seems the book "50 Shades of Gray" is now the big popular thing and, I read, that it started off as a Twilight fanfic. My neighbor bought one. I read the first three pages and every paragraph is so painful.... ugh.

I just read an article about that book on the bbc site last week and it made me want to write an erotic novel and become rich! Frostheart has requested a sample of some of my erotic writing involving Linden, some giants and an urvile. it is very steamy.


...requested to the Yet Worse Bad Writing Contest. Razz Razz


Fyi, I wasn't aware I were belittling any exiting person's problems anywhere, merely ranting about poorly written fictional characters and annoyed at how the reader becomes hammered over the head by Edward's angelic übermenchness in every other paragraph. I'm afraid I cannot change my opinion over these books; just not my type of literature at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frostheart wrote:
...
On the other hand, you never know about people (hey, I watch cartoons...).


Laughing Is that something supposed to be shameful? I admire the TMNT cartoons)

Ananda wrote:
...
Frostheart has requested a sample of some of my erotic writing involving Linden, some giants and an urvile. it is very steamy.


And more of that will be greeted happily)

Frostheart wrote:
...
Fyi, I wasn't aware I were belittling any exiting person's problems anywhere, merely ranting about poorly written fictional characters and annoyed at how the reader becomes hammered over the head by Edward's angelic übermenchness in every other paragraph. I'm afraid I cannot change my opinion over these books; just not my type of literature at all.


I wonder what most of the Twilight fans may say about liking a leper who is even rotting away at some points)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frostheart wrote:
...
Fyi, I wasn't aware I were belittling any exiting person's problems anywhere, merely ranting about poorly written fictional characters and annoyed at how the reader becomes hammered over the head by Edward's angelic übermenchness in every other paragraph. I'm afraid I cannot change my opinion over these books; just not my type of literature at all.


The thing is, when a person who loves Twilight reacts strongly to your statements, it is probably because they relate in some way to the story and it hurts their feelings, because they feel invalidated. (look, a five-syllable yet common English word!)

Effaeldm wrote:

I wonder what most of the Twilight fans may say about liking a leper who is even rotting away at some points)


*humor-mode* Well, if they can get through the series to this point, they would probably swoon over his clear and undying love for Linden Avery! They would see her headlong rush to resurrect him as being just like Bella or something like that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! How did my beautiful, sublime and deeply felt thread about my struggle with the Last Chrons turn into the Twilight Forum Cussing Big Grin


SRD may have committed some literary crimes while writing the Last Chrons but even those don't deserve this punishment. (I actually think some of them do Hide )

u.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twisted Evil Your booty-full, sub-lame and deeply faulty thread gets its fate, particularly well-deserved after your most recent words here Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Effaeldm wrote:
Twisted Evil Your booty-full, sub-lame and deeply faulty thread gets its fate, particularly well-deserved after your most recent words here Twisted Evil

Razz Sticks and Stones from Leper-Loving FanGirls (LLFGs) will break none of my metaphorical bones Razz

u.

[P.S. I love the Leper too, just not enough to be a Last Chrons FanBoy Sad ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No intent to break your bones here, even the metaphorical ones. You suffer more than enough by your own hand, or rather your own mind, by being not able to feel the joy of the new Chrons.

And that was just asking for a lame pun or a few)

ussusimiel wrote:
...
beautiful, sublime and deeply felt
...


Effaeldm wrote:
...
booty-full, sub-lame and deeply faulty
...


ussusimiel wrote:
...
Leper-Loving FanGirls (LLFGs)
...


That may be more like LFLFGs in this case, TOTABD. Oh fine, also LMLFGs, hard to resist)
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