Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Death, Ascendency, and Godhood

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Library -> Steven Erikson Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Onos T'oolan
First Sword of the T'lan Imass

Male
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 376

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:21 am    Post subject: Death, Ascendency, and Godhood Reply with quote

I've been spending a lot of time at malazanempire.com lately. I posted this there, after txting thoughts to ali. Heh.

Not sure this is going anywhere, but I was thinking...

Hood Ascended and became a god without dying. Much later, death (via Dragnipur), ended his godhood. Or did he die, then give up his godhood?

Death was the final step in Kellanved and Dancer Ascending and becoming gods. (Or not? I guess the assassination attempts failed. According to Apsalar in HoC.)

Death was the final step in the Ascension of the Bridgeburners, but it didn't make them gods. (Did they later become the Collective God of Death?)

Treach Ascended without dying, but became a god by dying.

In short, we have: death causing (or being a major ingredient in) Ascension and godhood; death causing Ascension, but not godhood; death causing godhood in one already Ascended; and death (maybe) removing godhood.
_________________
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm Murrin
Aren't you?


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 15368

Thanks: 7
Thanked 41 Times in 39 Posts

Location: North East, UK
22402 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you need to die to Ascend - it seems to happen more often to living mortals. Death often accompanies the transition to godhood, though.

I don't think Kellanved or Dancer ever died, from what we saw in Night of Knives. I believe Laseen and the two of them all made the lie as real as possible, for their own reasons - Laseen to secure her power, them to claim Shadow without being recognised until they were ready.

I think the possession and/or exposure to power, and the influence of being notorious among many people, is the main factor to Ascension. Godhood is not as distinct from it as you might think, and it could be a simple case of their being an opening for a god which suits the nature of how an Ascendant is perceived, and a death - or a perceived death - is what allows the change in followers' minds to occur, and for them to appreciate the person as a god.
_________________
Inspiration Struck.

Mod of the General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Forum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Onos T'oolan
First Sword of the T'lan Imass

Male
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 376

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, indeed, you don't need to die to Ascend. Treach, Osserc, and Rake were Ascendants without having died. Apparently becoming Soletaken does the trick. At least in some cases. Was Buke Ascended? I guess he ascended; there was an elevation. Human who can turn into bird is greater than human who cannot turn into a bird. But did he Ascend?

I'm just saying death can be a powerful thing. It was a key ingredient in the Ascension of the Bridgeburners. And would Treach have gone from being an Ascendant to a god if he had not died? Osserc did it. Kellanved and Dancer Ascended and became gods without dying. But Treach did die before becoming a god, so, in his case, it may have played a role.
_________________
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Broken
Toll the Hound

Male
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1308

Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.
4081 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Earthblood1 Sandgorgon1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Murrin ,ascencion IMO occurs as a result of that persons actions, deeds,personal commitments, perhaps even vows, and or promises they have made.
Godhood occurs when that person aquires a following that chooses to invest faith. maybe.
_________________
Wide Eyed Stupid
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Onos T'oolan
First Sword of the T'lan Imass

Male
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 376

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, more thoughts or bits of information.

There's Dassem Ultor. First Sword of the Malazan Empire. Knight of High House Death. But not an Ascendant. BUT, he gained worshipers, and became a god - Dessembrae, Lord of Tears. NOW he's an Ascendant.


Again, Iskaral Pust to Icarium and Mappo:
Quote:
'Look at you two. Both ancient wanderers of this mortal earth. Why have you not ascended like the rest of them? I'll tell you. Longevity does not automatically bestow wisdom. On no, not at all'

Icarium's actions have had extraordinary consequences in the world. He wiped out entire cities. He struck the final blow to shatter a warren. He seems to have created new warrens. He IS a portal to Chaos. Hell, a continent recognized him when he stepped onto it!

Still, he never managed to Ascend in all that time. Never got to drink T'iam's blood. Never became Soletaken in any other way. Never had a spell cast for him, as Kellanved cast one for himself and Dancer. Never became worshiped.
_________________
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm Murrin
Aren't you?


Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 15368

Thanks: 7
Thanked 41 Times in 39 Posts

Location: North East, UK
22402 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Rubber Duck


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dassem was Ascended. I don't know why you think he wasn't - he was Ascendant ever since the Logros made him First Sword.
_________________
Inspiration Struck.

Mod of the General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Forum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Onos T'oolan
First Sword of the T'lan Imass

Male
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 376

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I think he wasn't is because nobody ever says he was, and because he's not listed as an Ascendant on any of the lists of Ascendants.

But I can understand if that view would need to be revised because of the conversation we see between Onos T'oolan and Logros. I'll have to read that again. Can't right now, though. Gotta go do some chores. Laughing


Edit: Did Trull Ascend when he became the Knight of Shadow?
_________________
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul


Last edited by Onos T'oolan on Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lucimay
Mott Irregular, Bridgeburner, Pirate

Ranyhyn
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 14481

Thanks: 10
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts

Location: Mott Wood, Genebakis
14949 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Mod Squad


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait i thought he was ascended ever since the battle in which he was apparently mortally wounded (you know when temper was there with him fighting at his side) and disappeared or went into hiding and became Traveller. i thought he was ascended all that whole time he was being Traveller. the question i had was DID he die that day and ascend or not die and ascend?
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies


i've had this with actors before, on the set, where they get upset about the [size of my] trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer, cause... i'm from kentucky and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio


a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Onos T'oolan
First Sword of the T'lan Imass

Male
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 376

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts


894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Unfettered


PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think you're right. But I think he Ascended at that point. That's when he supposedly died, and gained worshipers. That's when he became Dessembrae, Lord of Tragedy.
_________________
"You have no understanding of what his title of Sword signifies - he is without equal in this world." -- K'rul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Library -> Steven Erikson Forum All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch