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The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans Reply with quote

A good article in the New Yorker about GRRM's fans, and the schism amongst them over his release schedule.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow - what an ugly thing. i saw people on the dc comics boards turn against the writers. why engage in such hostility?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey thanks for posting that! enjoyed reading it.

yeah i've always had a problem with people who have an overwheening sense of entitlement.

they've no clue what hard work writing actually is sometimes, even if you love it. that little passage in the article where he talks about that tyrion chapter and ripping it out and putting it back in and ripping it out again...thats what you go through when you're trying to write. and there is a HUGE amount of pressure on him to give us his best work and live up to the first four (well, five now) books.

anyway, he'll finish it. i'm confident and i'll wait for it. it'll be worth it i'm sure. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Damelon for posting this. Very interesting.

It's almost as if GRRM is too close to his fans, as if he doesn't have clear enough boundaries.

Has there ever been any kind of serious rift among SRD's fans?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think so, unless you count THOOLAH. Wink

But SRD's genius was in *not* telling anybody, 20 years ago, that he was planning a third series. GRRM said upfront (more or less) that his ASoIaF would be 7 books. SRD has also been clear all along about his publishing schedule -- one book every three years -- and he's stuck to it. GRRM has repeatedly made promises he hasn't delivered on. And too, SRD only works on one project at a time, while it's clear that GRRM likes to diversify; that makes it easy to accuse him of shirking work on ASoIaF by doing all this other stuff instead.

Maybe GRRM should take a lesson from SRD and just shut up about his future writing plans, period. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THOOLAH doesn't count. We are simply those who have eyes to see Big Grin

My own (admittedly short) experience of this forum has shown me that it is probably the writer and the work that determine what the fans and their forums will be like.

When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot. And, (correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression that while SRD is friendly and available to his fans he also maintains his boundaries, as do the fans. This for me is more real and healthy than some of the stuff that GRRM seems to have got involved in.

u.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed on all counts, uss.

Re the dressing up, tho: There was an effort at the first E-fest to have everyone bring an ochre robe to wear. I didn't get to attend that one, but the pictures were hilarious -- nobody could agree on what color ochre was. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
nobody could agree on what color ochre was. Laughing


Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

I'm not surprised. One of those impressionistic things that a writer like SRD can do (like one of his favourites, Conrad). Does make it difficult to get a consistent style and colour though Laughing

I'd love to see some of those picture! I've had a quick scan around but I couldn't locate them. Any direction?

Thanks,

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been very serious rifts about the works themselves, of course...how good/bad etc.
But I only remember a couple posters ever hating people/author [one who said LC's were just trash written for the money, another prone to calling peeps "Fanboys" if they disagreed with his/her opinion.]
We seem to save the personal hating for the close and the tank, not the lit. threads. [though even those threads pretty rare and lightweight.]

It kinda made me laugh...the peeps that think GRRM OWES them some kind of word-per-day output...but he did set himself up for it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, rats. Sad I went to the last page of the Group Fests album -- looks like the only picture of the first E-fest that survived was the group picture from the dinner with SRD. Unless the "ochre robes" picture was in a separate thread... Can somebody help me out?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:


My own (admittedly short) experience of this forum has shown me that it is probably the writer and the work that determine what the fans and their forums will be like.

When I saw the pictures from the different Elohimfest I was delighted to see that there was none of the dressing up that goes on at conventions and the like. It told me a lot. And, (correct me if I'm wrong) I get the impression that while SRD is friendly and available to his fans he also maintains his boundaries, as do the fans. This for me is more real and healthy than some of the stuff that GRRM seems to have got involved in.

u.


Pretty much. Donaldson is fairly open with his fans, but like you point out... it's different. I could never see myself walking up to SRD in a grocery store and telling him 'good job', even if presented with the opportunity. Hell, this past E-fest my comments to him were with regards to Ford Maddox Ford... and I absolutely LURVED AATE.

Martin, on the other hand... I imagine he has others do his grocery shopping Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I wanted to dress up as Trell and carry around a huge rock at E-Fest 1 and someone wanted to make a silver leaf outfit ala Lena and we did talk a lot about ochre robes, but we never carried out these plans-we all showed up as our selves...

While I heartily agree that GRRM should not have been so public about his writing schedule I also agree that he got too close to his fans-during certain tours, especially in meet-ups with a core group called the Brotherhood without Banners, there was a heel of a lot of drinking and commingling with fans involved...(just saying)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally got around to reading this article, and I can't believe the sense of entitlement that those people have!

Seriously... If Martin decides, tomorrow, that he'll never publish another novel, that's his decision to make!

Anyway, the greatest schism I've seen in SRD's fans concerns the Last Chrons... certain people are not enjoying them at all. Personally, I love em Very Happy

(Though the GAP is still my favorite... Come on, HBO, make a GAP series!)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thoroughly agree (as long as Johnny Depp, Tom Cruise or Keenu Reeves do not play Nick, LOL)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know, i appreciate that everyone has their opinion and that, here, on the watch, we all get to say what our opinions are. that being said, i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.
martin should do this, martin should not do that, maybe martin should take a page from SRD's book and only promise what he knows he can deliver...???? really?

SRD and GRRM are two different people living their lives. apples and oranges. different writers plying their craft the best way they know how.

ask yourself how many times you've had to amend things you've said to other people about what you are doing and how long it should take you to do it. how often have you changed your mind about how to go about getting something you are doing done?
what if there was a camera on you 24/7 and we got to look at and comment on how you're living your life and what YOU should being doing with your time? and then post our opinions of you on an internet forum.
how many times would we be able to say OH EPIC FAIL on getting that laundry done! you shouldn't have TOLD us you'd be able to get it done when you KNEW there was a possiblity that the dryer could give out and break down! see how [insert next door neighbor] got HER laundry done! AND she didn't stop to take a piss either nor tell us there were only going to be 3 loads when there was a possiblity of there being 5 loads. she's a MUCH better laudry-doer than you.

edit for one last thing: i'm not a big bible person but the 2 best pieces of advice i DID get from that book...

do unto others as you would have done unto you
and
judge not, lest ye be judged.

seriously people.

/end rant.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't hold back Luci. Tell us how you really feel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I didn't mean for y'all to take me seriously... Embarassed

And nobody needs to start an Internet forum to tell me what a lousy job I do at fill-in-the-blank. I do just fine at that myself....
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
Well, I didn't mean for y'all to take me seriously... Embarassed

And nobody needs to start an Internet forum to tell me what a lousy job I do at fill-in-the-blank. I do just fine at that myself....


that wasn't directed at YOU specifcally...just the general you.

drew wrote:
Don't hold back Luci. Tell us how you really feel


always drew, always. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh...and for my part Luci, when I said he set himself up...
Well, that doesn't mean he DESERVED what happened...just that it was predictable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rigel wrote:
Finally got around to reading this article, and I can't believe the sense of entitlement that those people have!

Seriously... If Martin decides, tomorrow, that he'll never publish another novel, that's his decision to make!


Hail Rigel!

It's good to meet you!

I agree 100% with this. I had a similar (if opposite) experience when I first saw ROTE on a bookstore shelf. I screamed,'Nooooooooooooo!!!! He can't!!!!!!!!!' But, of course, SRD can do what he likes with his fantasy story. Two years of deep breathing and Kevin's Watch helped me calm down enough to finally finish FR only last week.



Rigel wrote:
Anyway, the greatest schism I've seen in SRD's fans concerns the Last Chrons... certain people are not enjoying them at all. Personally, I love em Very Happy


I'm in the 'not enjoying them at all camp', but my experience on KW has given me a wider perspective than I would have previously had. I see now that if SRD had not written the Final Chrons this forum might not have half the life it currently has and that is not something to be underestimated. SRD is a wise and canny person. I am not saying that he wrote the books because of the depth of love of his fans. But, having always intended to write the books, knowing that they would be well received would probably have added some (however much or little) impetus to starting the FCs.

Quote:
(Though the GAP is still my favorite... Come on, HBO, make a GAP series!)


I may have to revisit the Gap series. I think I read four of them before I stopped Shocked

lucimay wrote:
i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.
martin should do this, martin should not do that, maybe martin should take a page from SRD's book and only promise what he knows he can deliver...???? really?


Hi again lucimay!

And we miscommunicate/disagree again Big Grin

A few points with regard to the above. Firstly, there is bound to be a certain amount of expectation when a writer is writing a series rather than stand-alone novels. I think that frustration is only human when a story is not finished. Secondly, I have a feeling that the relationship between writer and reader/fan has changed significantly over the last number of years most probably due to marketing pressure from publishers. In this new relationship fans may have developed a unreasonable level 'entitlement'.

Finally, the Internet allows a level of interaction that was previously unimaginable, KW and the GI are examples of this. So, it is much more likely that people are going to publicly say what they think. And, IMO, fans talking among themselves are entitled to say what they like. It the same as any conversation that people have. Addressing criticisms and judgements directly to and at the author is a totally different thing and here I am in complete accord with you. It's presumptous and rude. If you have that sort of a problem with a writer stop buying their books!

u.
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