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The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought the first 4 or 5 DT books were awesome. Seriously let down by 6 & 7. Was fine with the ending though.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl,

I still don't see how you are entitled to more than you get with an individual book in a series. I read the first two books in Melanie Rawn's "Exiles" series that will never be completed. She had some very serious personal, family, and health issues that drove her out of the writing profession for a number of years and apparently will not finish that story. Is she a "dick" for not finishing?

What should the consequences to her "dickishness" be? By your standard she is infinitly worse than GRRM who continued writing but simply had trouble with the last two books in the series.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Entitled" is a loaded word, but I'll bite. Selling a complete story in a series format is a risk management strategy by the publishing company. It keeps the printing costs low, minimizing risk until there is evidence of a decent return on a larger investment. In the real world (I'll repeat: people wonder why speculative fiction doesn't get much respect), a story is sold complete and can be evaluated on those merits. But when it comes to fantasy, readers are asked to put themselves in the position of early adapters (fans). After the first installment, they are asked to evaluate the story not on what it is, but on what they think it could be.

Now, some fans lose out when a series doesn't gain enough, or consistently gain enough, to make it worthwhile to continue. That sucks, but the only thing fans have to blame is the lack of more fans.

But some authors come along and upset this process. They get the fans, they get the publishing (how many authors would kill to have Martin's relationship with Bantam?), but they don't produce. Now some just screw up the ending. Their work doesn't deliver on the promise of the first book. While this sucks (especially because you end up paying triple the price for a story that might not altogether be better than a single novel), you can just chalk it up to a failing on the author's part and decide if you'll read something else they put out. But when the author dicks around and delivers an inferior product? To me, that's twice the reason to be pissed. It doesn't mean a fan has any kind of legal recourse, but it's certainly enough to express a hostile opinion.

I've never read Rawn, so I'm not justified in offering an opinion. I have no personal stake in what she wrote. Elsewhere in referring to Martin, however, I did say that it would be different if he had compelling, unavoidable issues that kept him from writing, but I didn't see where that was the case, nor has anyone offered such.

As for consequences, I suppose it's no different than Martin. They can complain, and they can take their money elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take Terry Goodkind (please, God). The first book was decent (derivative, but well done for that). He produced the books on a decent schedule, and for the most part, the story that began in Wizard's First Rule was concluded even before Goodkind forgot what writing that kind of book is about. The fact that he turned the series into a Randian screed is lamentable, making it worthy of my scorn and not worth my time to read anything else he may publish, but that's the extent of it.

Or what about Terry Pratchett (don't worry, I'm not planning on a Terry Brooks example to make a Terry Trifecta)? He doesn't put out nearly as many Discworld novels as he used to, and many of them aren't as good as others. True, but each novel is self-contained. I can skip entire entries and not miss all that much from any kind of overall story (and I've done so several times). Even if Martin does pull a decent conclusion out, that means I'll probably have to go back and actually finish AFfC... or I could just be lazy and let the series fill me on that part. That might be the better idea.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="
Quote:
"]"Entitled" is a loaded word, but I'll bite. Selling a complete story in a series format is a risk management strategy by the publishing company. It keeps the printing costs low, minimizing risk until there is evidence of a decent return on a larger investment. In the real world (I'll repeat: people wonder why speculative fiction doesn't get much respect), a story is sold complete and can be evaluated on those merits. But when it comes to fantasy, readers are asked to put themselves in the position of early adapters (fans). After the first installment, they are asked to evaluate the story not on what it is, but on what they think it could be.
I like this a lot. It speaks a lot of truth to the speculative fiction genre and how fans react to it. Think about it: giving fans time to digest and anticipate what the story might be about actually seems to hurt the series in the long run. They become less willing to follow the author's vision. I guarentee that because of this, more people are going to be satisfied with the Malazan books then aSoIaF or the Last Chronicles because Erikson did not give people much time to anticipate. It won't matter which is the superior work (*cough* the Last Chronicles *cough*) readers won't like it if you give them enough time to convince themselves that they could have done iit better.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just came across this thread and read the article. I have to say that, while I'm not one of those bitching about how long GRRM is taking to finish the series (at least not publicly Wink), I was kind of offended by this remark in the article:

Quote:
Martin, who is sixty-two, told me that Franck calls the disaffected readers the Entitlement Generation: “He thinks they’re all younger people, teens and twenties. And that their generation just wants what they want, and they want it now. If you don’t give it to them, they’re pissed off.”


Not all the people I've seen complaining are in their teens and twenties, not by a long shot.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also looked at the "Is Winter Coming?" forum last night. I have to admit to being amused by some of the comments and links. But I was annoyed that they have a HUGE paragraph at the top of every forum page asking those viewing the page to join the forum. Why can't I just look without being reminded to join the forum on every page and having to scroll past that paragraph to view forum comments?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it begins again. To tell the truth, after years of this, I'm getting slightly peeved. It's almost like these people have nothing better to do but read/watch A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones. I mean, come on! They seem to act as if there are no other books they can be reading or life to live.

I can understand anticipation, but this constant morbid fixation on whether or not Martin will finish is stupid, and it really should not surprise anyone that he flipped someone off (collectively) over it. The guy devotes a good portion of his time interacting with as many fans as he can and the thanks he gets is having his mortality questioned constantly due to his weight?

Newsflash: Anyone can and will die at anytime: you, me, Martin....get over it! If journeys are not worth it to you until they are concluded, don't start them.

Ugh, these entitled, talentless hacks with boring, pointless lives... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, what are you referring to?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm Murrin wrote:
Uh, what are you referring to?
Joe's mama!

Maybe it's just me, but there's been an upsurge on articles about how Winds of Winter isn't coming out this year, and the show is catching up, and Martin can't keep up, and he should sell the rights to HBO, and so on and so forth...

Same story, really, which is why I hadn't posted anything specific. But here's an example: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/02/01/hbo-needs-to-finish-game-of-thrones-with-or-without-george-r-r-martin/

Like I said, same complaints, new HBO component (same as the old HBO Component), newish personal opinion.... old thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope he doesn't sell the rights. Otherwise the story is gonna get really screwed. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supposedly he's talked with the show's developers already, and told them what's supposed to happen and how it's all supposed to end. So if they do get ahead of him, it should still be okay.

Although that sets up an interesting dilemma: If HBO finishes the series, then the series would be canon. Right? So then Martin would have to write the last few books to HBO's canon. Right? Hmm....
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
Supposedly he's talked with the show's developers already, and told them what's supposed to happen and how it's all supposed to end. So if they do get ahead of him, it should still be okay.

Although that sets up an interesting dilemma: If HBO finishes the series, then the series would be canon. Right? So then Martin would have to write the last few books to HBO's canon. Right? Hmm....
Well, just in a general sense. There is plenty of stuff that is (apparently) not in the show that are in the books. We'd just know what anybody would have all ready known: the White Walkers are defeated, "peace" is "restored" to the Land... yadda-yadda...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all getting a bit convoluted for me... Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They'll screw it up.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who, the TV show runners? Haven't they done that already?

*ducks*

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha, yes, but at least you can prove it by pointing to the books. Very Happy

If they finish the series before he does, will we be reading his story? Or somebody else's.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point.

Sure wish he'd finish those books, but I've given up both the waiting and the hoping.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't rush art (or miracles) you get lousy art.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some would say it's gotten lousy already. The last two books didn't get overwhelmingly positive reviews.

Not that I'm saying I agree, necessarily, with the negative reviews. I'm still reading, waiting, and hoping for the best.
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