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The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never know, perhaps Martin will finally take the criticism to heart, and it will be a great victory for impatience, unearned senses of entitlement*, and the notion that quality is meaningless if a "story" doesn't have "resolution"**.

Anyhoo, this thread belongs in either my forum, in general literature, or the Martin forum (depending on how narrowly you want to categorise it).


*Yes, I'm being deliberately hyperbolic.

**Gormenghast and Titus Alone are brilliant pieces of literature. Both end with Titus turning his back on Gormenghast (and thus on his responsibility as Lord Groan) and the sense of something unfinished. The latter was incomplete and imperfect due to Peake's illness and death. They're still brilliant.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking the GRRM forum. Unless you desperately want it, Murrin.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, it depends: is this about George R R Martin, or is it about what debt any artist might owe to their audience? I think the debate itself is on the principles, not the specific case.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lucimay wrote:
soooo, lemme get this straight if i can, sheriff. you're not buying any more martin books until he finishes the series but you don't really think it's good enough to read anyways; you'd just rather watch the hbo show?

When (if) he finishes the series, I'll check them out from the library (as I do with most first entries in a series). If I feel like I'll ever want to reread them or could conceivably loan them to a friend in good conscience, I'll buy a copy.
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and you buying his books makes grrm your bitch?

No, buying his books makes makes him his audience's bitch. I just have a very small stake in his bitchness. Nevertheless, that stake has value to me, and I feel perfectly justified in complaining about its devaluation and likely failure to offer a return on investment.

Thanks, Av.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His audience have already invested in his future works? I don't believe that's true. They bought a book, and got what they bought.

If there's any issue it'd be between Martin and his publisher for not delivering on his contract. The readers aren't even buying their books from Martin, they're buying them from the publisher, and the publisher isn't making any promises. The statements Martin made between ASoS and AFfC all tended to be "I've told my publishers X", not promises to the readers. (After Feast, he stopped predicting dates publicly.)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
Like I said, it depends: is this about George R R Martin, or is it about what debt any artist might owe to their audience? I think the debate itself is on the principles, not the specific case.

Well, it started out being about the specific case. But I see your point.

Okay, moving to General Fantasy/Sci Fi.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do have a Martin forum...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
His audience have already invested in his future works? I don't believe that's true. They bought a book, and got what they bought.

Only as much that selling a story implies one with a beginning, middle, and an end*. Considering the nature of series, there is an implicit promise (not an explicit one, except to his publishers) that these things will be provided, and there is at least an expectation that it will be provided in a reasonable time frame.

The second half is only an argument for not buying any book in a series until it's complete. Reasonable, perhaps, but not when most authors don't make this a problem. Of course, it glosses over the fact that publishers won't continue a series that doesn't sell well from the start.

Now, you can say that we should just be all Zen and enjoy novels in the moment for what they are. That's certainly one way of doing it, but try telling that to the people who make a huge stink over spoilers, ARCs, and other such things.
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If there's any issue it'd be between Martin and his publisher for not delivering on his contract.

The common misperception here is that I am making a case to sue Martin for breach of contract, when I am simply making a case to having a negative opinion. As I stated earlier, it is not the publisher dragging it out, not a teamsters' strike preventing delivery, not even the Muses who refuse to bless Martin's typewriter (though if someone wants to take that interpretation, they're welcome to it). It is Martin's failure alone.
Quote:
The readers aren't even buying their books from Martin, they're buying them from the publisher, and the publisher isn't making any promises. The statements Martin made between ASoS and AFfC all tended to be "I've told my publishers X", not promises to the readers. (After Feast, he stopped predicting dates publicly.)

So I should be mad at Amazon for not having a book to sell me? Or UPS for not delivering a non-existent book to my doorstep? If I was his publisher or editor, I'm sure I'd have much different things to say. I'm not.

*Yes, some authors make a pretty good living at selling only one or two parts of that combination. I don't think we can reasonably assume that was Martin's intent from the beginning. And if it's his intent now, screw him.

(considering the title and the main thrust of the debate, I don't see any reason why this should be anywhere but the Martin forum)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
lucimay wrote:
soooo, lemme get this straight if i can, sheriff. you're not buying any more martin books until he finishes the series but you don't really think it's good enough to read anyways; you'd just rather watch the hbo show?

When (if) he finishes the series, I'll check them out from the library (as I do with most first entries in a series). If I feel like I'll ever want to reread them or could conceivably loan them to a friend in good conscience, I'll buy a copy.
Quote:
and you buying his books makes grrm your bitch?

No, buying his books makes makes him his audience's bitch. I just have a very small stake in his bitchness. Nevertheless, that stake has value to me, and I feel perfectly justified in complaining about its devaluation and likely failure to offer a return on investment.

Thanks, Av.


ahhhhh! gotcha. you feel justified in bitching about the bitch. Laughing

ok. just wanted to clarify for myself what we were agreeing to disagree on. i thought i knew but i just wanted to make sure cause i sorta got lost in the debate.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danlo wrote:
We do have a Martin forum...


yes danlo, we have martin forum AND an erikson forum. but SOMETIMES the discussion is not necessarily about martin or erikson so much as it is about a principle or a concept or idea.

sorry if were messing with you sense of order here. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lucimay wrote:
danlo wrote:
We do have a Martin forum...


yes danlo, we have martin forum AND an erikson forum. but SOMETIMES the discussion is not necessarily about martin or erikson so much as it is about a principle or a concept or idea.

sorry if were messing with you sense of order here. Razz

Thank the gods this is out of my hands now! Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you feel justified in bitching about the bitch

No, I am justified, the evidence for which I have amply supplied and defended. We don't have to agree to disagree because no one is begrudging your right to just take whatever Martin gives you, nor have I negatively characterized it (much. I did possibly equate to it to being a sucker). I am not pulling a Rus and insisting everyone has to think the way I do or they're wrong. I do think that there are some negative consequences to your approach, just as there likely are to mine, but I do not think they counterbalance whatever reasons you have for choosing it.

And I'm not bitching; I'm "objecting." Wink

Quote:
why engage in such hostility?

Quote:
i've always had a problem with people who have an overwheening sense of entitlement.

they've no clue...

Quote:
It kinda made me laugh...the peeps that think GRRM OWES them some kind of word-per-day output

Quote:
i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.

Quote:
George RR Martin is not your bitch

People that disagree with you may have very good reasons for doing so, and they may just be sitting right next to you.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But when everybody else starts complaining how he died before finishing the series or that it ends otherwise disappointingly, I reserve full "I told you so" rights and will likely have a slight spring in my step while you all are crying in your boots. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
But when everybody else starts complaining how he died before finishing the series or that it ends otherwise disappointingly, I reserve full "I told you so" rights and will likely have a slight spring in my step while you all are crying in your boots. Wink


Won't happen, I was able to justify Crossroads of Twilight to myself, how much harder in incomplete or poorly ended Martin series? Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I've actually liked the last two WoT books (though I long ago stopped buying them). They're everything the books after the 4th one should have been (Jordan's strong points were never in turning a phrase, anyway). I'm just saying... there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
yes danlo, we have martin forum AND an erikson forum. but SOMETIMES the discussion is not necessarily about martin or erikson so much as it is about a principle or a concept or idea.


Granted with Martin, it's fine it's here, but face it you suckers are always monopolizing the 'what are you reading thread' here about Malazan books! Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:


Hi Zorm, good to talk to you again!

I don't have anything against it per se. But the absence of it tells me that the people involved are focused on the work and the writer rather than putting their energy into ancilliary stuff. This can make all the difference.


And the same to you!

I don't know if this is a weak argument, but.... In my opinion, a well-done cosplay or a character costume could be considered a form of fan art, and it does require paying attention to the writing, if no uniform visual references exist (say, pre-HBO ASOIAF). One'll have to dig out every detail from expressions to gestures if one desires to portray a character accurately in a drawing, and much the same applies to cosplaying. It's merely concentrating on the writing in a different fashion: one studies their favorite characters till their personae have been learned by heart.

Over the years, I've seen some truly beautiful costumes both in fan gatherings and medieval faires, and regarding some of the former, I bet any author would've been proud of such homage. Smile I'm not talking about those crummy concoctions gathered up from random scraps of poor-quality polyester and duct tape. Wink To compare, my own Varyag outfit with hand-embroidered details has devoured a good two years so far, and still I'm not entirely happy with it.

The TC series is however particularly tricky in this regard; in the LCs, especially, many characters have been left so visually void of subtleties that the reader must mentally create their appearances from the scratch (save for perhaps the Harrow and a scintilla of others). Plus no companion books or convenient movies or mini-series. Might at least marginally explain the lack of costumes?

----

Back to the main topic.... I originally only skimmed through the article due to a lack of time, but now that I got round digesting it properly...hooboy. Especially this pleasant li'l bit warmed my heart. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
He went on, “Some of you are angry that I watch football during the fall.” Other online posters, he noted, objected to him “visiting places like Spain and Portugal (last year) or Finland (this year).”


Apparently living in Europe makes us somehow lesser beings not worth getting a visit from the almighty author, huh? Northern Europe--wildlings and snarks beyond the Wall; what do they care about books, they just eat snow and ride mammoths. Rolling Eyes The logic of these rabid "fans"...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I've been placated by the HBO series and have ordered ADWD I'm done with my bitching, for now...in about a year I'll be bitching again about book 6... Big Grin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
Quote:
you feel justified in bitching about the bitch

No, I am justified, the evidence for which I have amply supplied and defended. We don't have to agree to disagree because no one is begrudging your right to just take whatever Martin gives you, nor have I negatively characterized it (much. I did possibly equate to it to being a sucker). I am not pulling a Rus and insisting everyone has to think the way I do or they're wrong. I do think that there are some negative consequences to your approach, just as there likely are to mine, but I do not think they counterbalance whatever reasons you have for choosing it.

And I'm not bitching; I'm "objecting." Wink

Quote:
why engage in such hostility?

Quote:
i've always had a problem with people who have an overwheening sense of entitlement.

they've no clue...

Quote:
It kinda made me laugh...the peeps that think GRRM OWES them some kind of word-per-day output

Quote:
i still find it bizarre that anyone can sit in judgement of a writer and what he does or doesn't tell the fans and what he does or doesn't live up to and even whether he has appropriate boundries or whatnot.

Quote:
George RR Martin is not your bitch

People that disagree with you may have very good reasons for doing so, and they may just be sitting right next to you.


i do not agree with your opinion of martin's output or your reasoning about why you won't buy his books.
you do not agree with me in my above stated opinions.
therefore, it looks to me like we don't agree.
we disagree.
agreed?
i don't mind you sitting next to me. Laughing

ps...this was sorta funny sheriff.

Quote:
No, I am justified


get it? justified. sheriff. Laughing



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i've had this with actors before, on the set, where they get upset about the [size of my] trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer, cause... i'm from kentucky and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a different opinion isn't something we need to agree or disagree about. It's just a simple fact. What we do not agree about, and what I will not simply agree to disagree about, is that by not sharing your opinion, I am somehow exhibiting overweening pride, clueless, or have so shallow and unsupportable an opinion as 'Martin is my bitch' (and I like Gaiman, but screw him too). My motives are just as rational and as entirely defensible as yours. In fact, I have put more effort into presenting my viewpoint and acknowledging yours than you have. Asking me to settle for less than acknowledgment of that is akin to calling me a simpleton and saying "Let's agree to disagree" when I don't like it.

And yeah, just like you don't draw on Raylan unless you mean it... I shoot to kill. But we can all live happy lives as long as you're not pointing something at me.
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