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The New Yorker takes a look at Martin's Fans
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving back to the article:
Quote:
“It behooves a writer to be good to his fans,” he says.

I don't care if he passes out handjobs at Dragon-Con. The best way to be good to your fans is give them something to read. Sacrificing (significant) time writing the next book over giving the diehards cute titles is like the phone company raising your rates and sending you a nice tote bag to thank you for your business. To me, it looks gimmicky and the mark of an insecure writer.
Quote:
“The tale grew in the telling,” Martin often says, quoting J. R. R. Tolkien, a writer he greatly admires.

By all accounts, this happens. You shouldn't expect a pat on the back for it, though. (and once again, Tolkien submitted a single manuscript. he didn't make the audience go through the process with him)
Quote:
“I made the fatal mistake of saying, ‘But the other book is half-written and I should be able to finish it within a year.’ ”

Yeah. That's called lying in some circles (or, more kindly, "letting your mouth write a check your ass can't cash"). It tends to piss people off.
Quote:
As the chief moderator of Westeros.org, García deleted forum posts that he regarded as “not constructive,” including increasingly wild speculation about the cause of the delay and the ultimate fate of the series. Martin’s blog was similarly monitored.

Glad I never wasted any time there. Man, half the THOOLAH people here would be banned.
Quote:
The online attacks on Martin suggest that some readers have a new idea about what an author owes them. They see themselves as customers, not devotees, and they expect prompt, consistent service. Martin, who is sixty-two, told me that Franck calls the disaffected readers the Entitlement Generation: “He thinks they’re all younger people, teens and twenties. And that their generation just wants what they want, and they want it now. If you don’t give it to them, they’re pissed off.”

Yeah, what would I know of hard work, dedication, and delayed gratification? Yes, I do see myself as a customer. More than that, I see my place in the risk management strategy that fantasy publishers have created. As I've already said, I don't think any author outside this genre could expect such support (and people wonder why f/sf often doesn't get any respect). The fan communities (like KW) that sprung up around this practice are starting to reject being taken for granted. As the article pretty much said, and as SRD might agree with, these fan communities can be a powerful tool in an author's pocket, but they have every right to turn on you if you mismanage it (including managing expectations). It's only new because few other authors have made it a problem, and only one that I can think of for similar reasons.
Quote:
Martin is widely credited with taking such fiction in a more adult direction.

Pffft. Popularizing it, yes. He didn't reinvent the wheel, though.
Quote:
“I’m still getting e-mail from assholes who call me lazy for not finishing the book sooner. They say, ‘You better not pull a Jordan.’ ”

Yeah, emailing that would probably make you an asshole, but we've all thought it.
Quote:
“How dare he die?” a woman said, witheringly. “I mean, what an inconvenience to the fans.”

No one blames Jordan for dying. Most of us are pretty sad about it. They blame him for dragging the story out unnecessarily when such a thing could happen (I believe Donaldson has discussed this concern as well with the 3rd Chrons.), even before he was diagnosed with his condition. If he kept working on it for 20 more years and then died, could people then be upset? 30?
Quote:
“People are analyzing every goddam line in these books, and if I make a mistake they’re going to nail me on it.”

Yep. Deal with it. Do the best you can, but people were still writing Tolkien twenty years later to correct these kinds of mistakes. That's what later editions are for.
Quote:
“As some of you like to point out in your e-mails, I am sixty years old and fat, and you don’t want me to ‘pull a Robert Jordan’ on you and deny you your book. Okay, I’ve got the message. You don’t want me doing anything except ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’ Ever. (Well, maybe it’s okay if I take a leak once in a while?)”

Pouting never solved anything.
Quote:
“Where is ‘Atonement II’?” Benioff interjected. “We’ve been waiting and waiting.”

Hilarious, Benny. I'd love a sequel to Fight Club, but nobody's pissed at Palahniuk for not writing one. Why? Because it wasn't sold as part of an incomplete story. On the other hand, Closing Time isn't nearly as famous as Catch 22, mainly because nobody really thought it needed a sequel. Or the time had passed.
Quote:
‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion.

How would he have felt if he had to wait five years for it? What about The X-Files?
Quote:
He does think of himself as being bound by an informal contract with his readers;

See?
Quote:
he feels that he owes them his best work. He doesn’t, however, believe that this gives them the right to dictate the particulars of his creative process or to complain about how he manages his time.

Some of us disagree that that contract works one way. I also don't give a fig about his creative process or time management, so long as he can deliver a decent product in a decent time.
Quote:
It makes little difference to these fans that they knew the series wasn’t finished when they started reading it, and that they still own the books they spent all that time and money on. As far as the detractors are concerned, Martin’s contract with them was for a story, their engagement with it offered on the understanding that he would provide them with a satisfying conclusion.

That's at least half right. I will just repeat that if fans waited until a series was done to see if it was worth buying all of, either the publishing model would have to change or the latter books wouldn't get printed. This isn't a problem for the vast majority of authors, even the ones that suck (because we expect them to suck or like the way they suck. See Twilight).
Quote:
Contrary to what his more extravagant critics allege, Martin insists that he has been working continuously on “A Dance with Dragons.” “They have all these insane theories ...

My theory isn't so extravagant. He just doesn't have what it takes to pull off such an ambitious project. Grand ideas are great, but it takes more than that, even on the printed page.
Quote:
“Maybe I have perfectionist’s disease, or whatever.”

Admirable, but this isn't a job interview, Mr. Martin. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Quote:
“I don’t want to come across as a whiner or a complainer,” Martin said...

No, but you're fine portraying your critics as such.
Quote:
“What if I fuck it up at the end? What if I do a ‘Lost’? Then they’ll come after me with pitchforks and torches.”

A lot of this think you're already fucking it up. Suck it up and write. You're not going to please everybody, and you risk displeasing more by not finishing the damn thing, either while you're alive or while people still care.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
Having a different opinion isn't something we need to agree or disagree about. It's just a simple fact. What we do not agree about, and what I will not simply agree to disagree about, is that by not sharing your opinion, I am somehow exhibiting overweening pride, clueless, or have so shallow and unsupportable an opinion as 'Martin is my bitch' (and I like Gaiman, but screw him too). My motives are just as rational and as entirely defensible as yours. In fact, I have put more effort into presenting my viewpoint and acknowledging yours than you have. Asking me to settle for less than acknowledgment of that is akin to calling me a simpleton and saying "Let's agree to disagree" when I don't like it.

And yeah, just like you don't draw on Raylan unless you mean it... I shoot to kill. But we can all live happy lives as long as you're not pointing something at me.



alright then, why didn't you just come out and say that you were offended by my comments? or did you and i missed it? sorry i'm not going backward to find out if i'm correct or incorrect in that, i'm just going to continue from here.

it's absolutely true that i didn't consider that you, who i appreciate and admire, would be one of the people that i referred to. mostly because i don't consider that you have an overwheening sense of entitlement. (i just figured you would know that but i was obviously wrong.)
i apologize if you felt, because of your opinions on martin and his work (or lack thereof) that my comments were directed at you.

i'm also sorry that you feel that i was asking you to acknowledge my opinion while i refused to acknowledge yours. that was not the case and in fact, i thougt i WAS acknowledging your opinion. yep, you've got one alright and we clearly don't have the same one.

as for attempting to defend my position, i really have no way of doing that. not like you did. my position is that no one really has the right to criticize a writer because it takes him longer than they would like to write a book. the creative process is a difficult one based on my experience with it. that no two writers (such as martin and donaldson) have the same kind of creative process and therefore we really can't have the same expectations of one as we have of the other. and that people, such as were referred to in the article which began this discussion, who make web sites and internet campaigns and spam forums diss'ing martin are, in fact, idiots with an overwheening sense of entitlement who (and here i'm inserting a word which i didn't before but which i see now i should have) PROBABLY have little or no clue about writing and that creative process and just want what they want when they want it without regard to someone like martin or any other writer for that matter having a life other than a word count per day output.
that is my position as best as i can state it. i have no defense for it.
it's just what i think.

never in a million years did it occur to me that you would take my statements as a personal slight and i suppose that was your point in that bit of chastizement.
consider me chastized. (and embarassed)

what i was attempting to do by saying lets agree to disagree was defuse the tension that i was beginning to feel reading your posts. obviously that was another major blunder on my part. i apologize for that too.

and to any others of you that i have inadvertently offended, my apologies.
that was not my intention.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Offense is a pretty strong word. The "simpleton" remark wasn't intended to be a 1:1 comparison. I meant just what I said, that on that point, I would not agree to disagree. It doesn't mean I was offended (in any meaningful sense of the word), just that I wanted to argue against it.

Heh. And I'm not saying that you asked me acknowledge your opinion. If I was a more polite, meek, or even circumspect person, I might have just asked people to acknowledge mine. That's not how I work, though. Other than debate the finer points of literature with Orlion, all I've been saying is, "Hey, some of us 'detractors' have brains. Recognize." As the portions I highlighted should show, it wasn't just you I was trying to contradict but the prevailing attitude of the thread.

Tension is the essence of debate. Applying it steadily until the other side blinks is how you win. Wink Normally, I'd take agreeing to disagree as a victory, but the way you phrased it didn't allow it. Nor is an apology necessary. All I was looking for was an ,"Oh, I guess intelligent people do have valid reasons for being disgruntled." I didn't take your comments or others' as a personal slight, but a challenge.

However, if need be, I will still continue to challenge your opinion, as you state it as a limit on what other people are justified in thinking. Everything else I can more or less agree on, though I think even this biased article (which is fine. not like it was the NYT) shows a fairly rational reason for the schism, if not rational examples of the opposing viewpoint (despite its weak attempts at objectivity). Your mistake, as I see it, is ascribing those qualities to the whole group of detractors, rather than the extreme examples given, or at least using some kind qualifier to avoid broad strokes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i blinked. you win. i don't now, nor have i ever wanted to debate.
not the finer points of literature nor my opinion. thats why i don't
post in the tank anymore. (except ever now and then when i see
a post i like and want to acknowledge)
challenge my opinion all you want. i've told you i have no defense.
its just what i think.
apology stands.
i'll be more careful how i word my posts from now on.
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i've had this with actors before, on the set, where they get upset about the [size of my] trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer, cause... i'm from kentucky and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you win

Woo hoo! *victory dance*[/sarcasm]

Way to take all the fun out of it. Wink Sorry if I was too hard on you (like you said...). I did overlook the "PROBABLY" above.

I do feel compelled to ask, though, if you respect my opinion on it, do you have reason to believe that it is not a valid opinion for most people? If you can't or won't support or examine it, don't you think your own view might be prejudicing your opinion of those who hold contrary ones? Sure, there are idiots who hold the same view I do, but considering mine is, I believe, the minority opinion, aren't there probably more idiots who hold yours?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're being unfair to Martin on a number of points. I don't think there's reason to criticise him for meeting fans when he's on the road for conventions and such - it's the kind of thing many authors do. Just because he spends that time meeting with groups of fans rather than sitting in the hotel bar talking to other writers doesn't make it somehow worse.

Hell, if he'd done the exact same things and hadn't struggled with the last two novels, would you still be calling it gimmicky and a sign of insecurity? (If yes, it's nothing to do with the topic of him getting the books out.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
Quote:
you win

Woo hoo! *victory dance*[/sarcasm]

Way to take all the fun out of it. Wink Sorry if I was too hard on you (like you said...). I did overlook the "PROBABLY" above.

I do feel compelled to ask, though, if you respect my opinion on it, do you have reason to believe that it is not a valid opinion for most people? If you can't or won't support or examine it, don't you think your own view might be prejudicing your opinion of those who hold contrary ones? Sure, there are idiots who hold the same view I do, but considering mine is, I believe, the minority opinion, aren't there probably more idiots who hold yours?


i don't consider opinions valid or invalid. they simply are.
or...better said, all opinions are valid, even if they don't
agree with mine.

you view the topic from your subjective position as i do mine.
we don't have the same perceptions on this issue.
you percieve "writer accountability" (if i can just reduce it down
to that phrase for the sake of brevity) whereas i do not.
certainly i respect that you percieve writer accountability.
i can't understand why you do, but you do so i'm fine with that.


i find something inherently incorrect about the idea of a
writer being accountable to the people who read the books.
i cannot tell you why i feel that way. i can't support my feelings.
it's gut. it just feels wrong to me and tho you are eloquent and
succinct in your points, it doesn't change my perception.
and let me add that whenever i read your posts i am always,
by my love for the way your mind works, open to having my
opinion changed.

some writers DO, i think, feel accountable to their audiences
in certain ways. after all, they would not be published authors
without the readers. absolutely it behooves them to keep their audience
happy. however i don't think that's the driving force behind what they
do or how they do it. and i don't think it should be either.


so yes, i think that my own view definitely prejudices my opinion
of those who hold the contrary one.
most certainly i made broad sweeping statements regarding
my opinion of those who did not share my opinion.
it was disdainful and woefully arrogant of me.

i've examined my opinion. i've told you what i think.
i'm not sure how i should "support" it but i've tried to
explain it more clearly. (and with less hyperbole)

as to how many idiots there are in either camp...i'm of the opinion that
the idiots in your camp all think of me as an idiot. thats the only thing
i'm completely sure of. Laughing

edit: in re-reading this post i think there was more i meant to say but i got interrupted while writing it so i beg you indulgence if it seems not quite altogether there. if i think of what else i was going to say i'll post again.
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i've had this with actors before, on the set, where they get upset about the [size of my] trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer, cause... i'm from kentucky and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio


a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last two WoT books were great. CoT is unjustifiable though. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin wrote:
I think you're being unfair to Martin on a number of points. I don't think there's reason to criticise him for meeting fans when he's on the road for conventions and such - it's the kind of thing many authors do. Just because he spends that time meeting with groups of fans rather than sitting in the hotel bar talking to other writers doesn't make it somehow worse.

Hell, if he'd done the exact same things and hadn't struggled with the last two novels, would you still be calling it gimmicky and a sign of insecurity? (If yes, it's nothing to do with the topic of him getting the books out.)

That last part was pretty much the point. In every other career, and in practically every other walk of life, if you're struggling you get down to business. You roll up your sleeves and get to work. You prioritize and put aside the extraneous things.

Even though I've never been to an Elohimfest or even one of Donaldson's book signings, and even though I've never gotten into Fantasy Bedtime Hour, I don't begrudge Donaldson engaging in such. I feel that he's approaching his craft professionally, and everything else is him just having fun and giving back to the fans. That's awesome.

Similarly, I haven't been entirely enamored of the Last Chronicles. It's not because I think the story has gotten away from him, though. He's just going in a different direction. As a fairly educated reader, I think I know well enough how to separate my personal opinion of a work from my judgment of its literary merit. And waiting 20 years for them isn't a problem because the 1st and 2nd Chronicles were self-contained. Now, if Donaldson had made us wait 5 years after the cliffhanger endings of the first two books, I might have a different opinion. And if Martin manages to pull it together and end up delivering on the promise of his first two books (the third was sort of meh for me), I could be singing an entirely different tune.

Yes, I think Martin's level of involvement with his fans is kind of silly and unprofessional. To me, it seems to hazard some of the integrity of the work. In the same way, I can't look to Pat for a decent review because of his level of involvement with the author. There's so much cliquishness and ego-stroking working both ways that I'd think it's a rather hazardous position for an author to put himself in. But I don't think this really supports my argument. It's just an opinion on the relationship. *shrug* If the books were good and on time (and I'm not even talking about a strict schedule), though, I'd never know. I'd be saying 'Who are you to judge what a man does in his spare time?' with the rest of you. Since that's not the case, however, I stand by the remark, especially since I'm not saying that's how it is, but how it looks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have my indulgence and my respect, Luci, though I'm not sure what to do with your post. Mr. Green

About all I can say is that there's a difference between being a writer, with all the creative and artistic mojo that implies, and publishing a novel. I don't consider myself in a position to judge Martin the Author (at least, other than the disappointment that was AFfC, but that has never been the direction this conversation has taken -- thankfully, since I haven't read the book since I put it down in disgust shortly after it came out), but I do think I'm in a position to judge Martin the Publishing Writer.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
You have my indulgence and my respect, Luci, though I'm not sure what to do with your post. Mr. Green


good. my work here is done. Laughing
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i've had this with actors before, on the set, where they get upset about the [size of my] trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer, cause... i'm from kentucky and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio


a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
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gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Other than debate the finer points of literature with Orlion,
Yeah... crazy off topic posts Razz

Of course, I've always considered the author's vision to be paramount. If you agree with that vision, you stick with it, even if they go about it a weird way. Sometimes, when you see it in its entirety, you no longer support the vision (Lost is a good example, since I defended that show to my friends up to a couple weeks after the last episode. Now, I don't agree with the vision, but that doesn't mean they should have done it differently). You, of course, are allowed to disagree with the vision, and definitely determine if it is worth the wait... since you are a consumer. I have no problem with that point. I just think an artist has responsibility first to the integrity of his art and then everything else afterwards.

Being untrue to that integrity is that paramount sin for an artist. Pissing on fans during the creative process is a much more minor sin (to me).

In conclusion, I think Martin's pulling a fast one on us. I think he's using this 'controversy' to up sales and get more publicity. I mean, in comparison Donaldson rarely talks about his detractors... and when he has, he only wastes about five words and a shrug.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl wrote:
Yes, I think Martin's level of involvement with his fans is kind of silly and unprofessional. To me, it seems to hazard some of the integrity of the work.


This chimes with what I said in an earlier post. (I know that lucimay sees it as unjustifiably judgemental but we won't go back there Big Grin ) For me this maybe says more about SRD than Martin. (Probably along with everyone else on the Watch) I think that integrity is the key to SRD's work. He never does anything that might threaten his writing or his ability to write. Any of the ancilliary stuff comes a distant second-place to the actual act of writing.

u.

P.S. I posted this mostly to get a chance to agree with Syl. Good for my kudos Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh* Mr Martin should've stuck with vampires and riverboats - things he was good at.













*runs away really fast*
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ussusimiel wrote:
P.S. I posted this mostly to get a chance to agree with Syl. Good for my kudos Laughing


oh u! More Razz Hysterical


Stonemaybe wrote:
*sigh* Mr Martin should've stuck with vampires and riverboats - things he was good at.
*runs away really fast*


not fast enough! Trout


(i do love abner marsh!) Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aliantha,

aliantha wrote:
I don't think so, unless you count THOOLAH. Wink

But SRD's genius was in *not* telling anybody, 20 years ago, that he was planning a third series. GRRM said upfront (more or less) that his ASoIaF would be 7 books. SRD has also been clear all along about his publishing schedule -- one book every three years -- and he's stuck to it. GRRM has repeatedly made promises he hasn't delivered on. And too, SRD only works on one project at a time, while it's clear that GRRM likes to diversify; that makes it easy to accuse him of shirking work on ASoIaF by doing all this other stuff instead.

Maybe GRRM should take a lesson from SRD and just shut up about his future writing plans, period. Wink [emphasis added]


GRRM never made any unqualified promises of a definitative release date for ADWD before the 7/12/2011 date was announced. If he has made such unqualified promise I've never seen it. Could you please provide a link or a copy of those "repeated" unqualified promises of a particular delivery date for ADWD?
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Last edited by SerScot on Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl,

[Quote ] wrote:
Murrin wrote:
His audience have already invested in his future works? I don't believe that's true. They bought a book, and got what they bought.

Only as much that selling a story implies one with a beginning, middle, and an end*. Considering the nature of series, there is an implicit promise (not an explicit one, except to his publishers) that these things will be provided, and there is at least an expectation that it will be provided in a reasonable time frame.

The second half is only an argument for not buying any book in a series until it's complete. Reasonable, perhaps, but not when most authors don't make this a problem. Of course, it glosses over the fact that publishers won't continue a series that doesn't sell well from the start.

Now, you can say that we should just be all Zen and enjoy novels in the moment for what they are. That's certainly one way of doing it, but try telling that to the people who make a huge stink over spoilers, ARCs, and other such things.
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If there's any issue it'd be between Martin and his publisher for not delivering on his contract.

The common misperception here is that I am making a case to sue Martin for breach of contract, when I am simply making a case to having a negative opinion. As I stated earlier, it is not the publisher dragging it out, not a teamsters' strike preventing delivery, not even the Muses who refuse to bless Martin's typewriter (though if someone wants to take that interpretation, they're welcome to it). It is Martin's failure alone.
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The readers aren't even buying their books from Martin, they're buying them from the publisher, and the publisher isn't making any promises. The statements Martin made between ASoS and AFfC all tended to be "I've told my publishers X", not promises to the readers. (After Feast, he stopped predicting dates publicly.)

So I should be mad at Amazon for not having a book to sell me? Or UPS for not delivering a non-existent book to my doorstep? If I was his publisher or editor, I'm sure I'd have much different things to say. I'm not.

*Yes, some authors make a pretty good living at selling only one or two parts of that combination. I don't think we can reasonably assume that was Martin's intent from the beginning. And if it's his intent now, screw him.

(considering the title and the main thrust of the debate, I don't see any reason why this should be anywhere but the Martin forum)


So Stephen King was being an asshole while when he decided to write "The Dark Tower" at his own pace and when he felt like writting it? Then the substandard fare that was received when he pushed through to the end of the story was him really careing about his fans?

Writting takes time. It's not masonry. I have to admit that I am disappointed with ADWD. I think it lacked the narrative cohesion we've seen in the other novels. Even in AFFC. I can tell in the reading that GRRM had a very hard time writting the book. I don't know if the pressure people applied demanding the book yesterday affected the quality but I can't imagine it helping.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgt.null wrote:
wow - what an ugly thing. i saw people on the dc comics boards turn against the writers. why engage in such hostility?

"In the game of thrones, trust no man" or something along those lines. WE DON'T TRUST YOU MARTIN Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought about it, but yes, King was rather dick-ish about the Dark Tower, only deciding to finish it after he was almost killed, and even then doing a mediocre job of it (ooh, a circular ending. didn't see that coming. so glad I waded through about 2000 pages of meh to get it[/sarcasm]). Both are pretty good examples of what happens when an author gets too big for editorial control. The difference, as I see it, is that King always had a kind of lackadaisical approach to the series, and he was still prolific during periods where he wasn't writing DT. Not that I've ever cared much for the rest of King's work.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be technical, SerScot, SRD never has a fixed date either until publication date Wink
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