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I Have the Answer (Big Spoiler, Possibly)
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Baradakas
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:37 pm    Post subject: I Have the Answer (Big Spoiler, Possibly) Reply with quote

If this has been posted elsewhere, I apologize, but it came to me the other day, and I can no longer hold it in.

I know who Jon Snow's mother is.

Spoiler:
More importantly, however, I know who Jon's father is.


Are you shocked? Apalled? I know I was!!!

All the clues you need are to be found in AGOT, with the extra hint in ASOS.

Spoiler:
1. Eddard Stark states in AGOT, that Arya reminds him of his sister Lyanna. Arya and Jon look a great deal alike. This alone does not confirm my theory.
2. Any time Eddard recalls Lyanna, he remember, blue roses, the same blue roses that Rhaegar Targaryen gives to Lyanna when he declares her the queen of love and beauty. Danaerys has a vision of the Wall, with a blue rose growing out of it. (Jon)
3. In Eddard Stark's remeberances, he and six others face three warriors of the Kingsguard at a broken tower in Dorne, where Lyanna was dying "in her bed of blood". So I have to ask: why are three of the Kingsgaurd guarding a broken tower holding a dying woman, when they should be fighting on the Trident? They had been ordered there, of course. Why? To protect Lyanna from the vengeful Martells, who would have slain her before she could give birth. After all, could you see Gerold Hightower, Oswyn Whent or the Sword of the Morning as murderers? None of them would taint themselves by killing a woman.
4. This brings us to Ned's promise to Lyanna. Should Robert ever learn that Lyanna had ever had a child by Rhaegar, the child would first and foremost be a threat to the throne, secondly, roberts hatred of all things Targaryen would mean the death of the child. So, Ned would have to promise that Robert, and the world would never know the truth. How could this be true? See the conversation between Arya and Edric Dayne in ASOS. If Ashara was jon's mother, how could Edric not know? As Harwin mentions shortly after, neither Ned nor Ashara were promised to anyone, so there would be no shame in it! Yet Edric was led to believe that Wylla was Jon's mother!!! I believe that both Ashara and Wylla were blinds, so we would miss the obvious truth; that Jon was in fact the last male Targaryen. Edit- This could also mean that Jon was the prince that was promised....

In short, I belive Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

This of course leaves just one question, why did Ashara kill herself? Compounded grief, of course. The death of her brother, and being rejected by Ned Stark, who certainly would have been aware that with the death of his brother, the promise of marriage to the Tully's would mean he would have to marry Catelyn to keep the honor of his house....


Thats all I have for now.
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Last edited by Baradakas on Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

O. M. G!!!

<runs to finish the book I'm reading so I can go back to ASOIAF and reread it for the 2nd time this year and check Baradakas's theory>
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, you actually got it on your own? I didn't think of it until someone else pointed it out to me, heh. Not many people spot all that.
Of course, GRRM is continuing to muddy the waters on this subject in Feast, since Spoiler:
in one of the Feast sample chapters, Davos is told a story about Ned Stark and a fishergirl from the Sisters, yet another conflicting theory.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work Baradakas! Very Happy

Spoiler:
I guessed as well, but at the time I thought Rhaegar raped Lyanna.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked

Wow....now that's something that I had not thought of.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's disturbingly fitting... Great concept, Baradakas!

Damn, now I've got the urge to re-read the whole thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another line in AGOT jumped out at me yesterday. Eddard is talking with Robert about Danaerys, and Robert says, "it will not trouble my sleep."
The next line says something like, Eddard had lived with his lie for fourteen years, and it still gave him nightmares. Hmmm, who in the story is about fourteen years old at that point? And Eddard's reaction to Robert asking about Wylla simply confirms my theory....


I'm pretty well certain about my theory at this point.


-B
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Spoiler:
I guessed as well, but at the time I thought Rhaegar raped Lyanna.


I thought that at first too, but one line of Ned's thoughts stood out for me.

Spoiler:
"It was said that Rhaegar had named that tower, the tower of joy..."

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This theory has been out for many years now:) Their's that and much more on his site, if that bothers you than:


Spoiler:
Aegon Targaryen is still alive, under the care of the banished former hand of the King and Rhaegars best friend Jon Connington and that should really get you thinking considering he is according to Rhaegar in Daenerys vision at the Hosue of undying The Prince that was Promised, and his is the Song of Ice and Fire, and better yet Tyrion is being taken to him apparently in A Feast for Crows.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All theory, of course - and based entirely on a nickname and the colour of his eyes.
Spoiler:
Not that I don't agree with it - I think it's a pretty sure thing that Griff is Jon Connington, not so sure about Aegon, though.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All theory, of course - and based entirely on a nickname and the colour of his eyes

Oh I agree it's all specualtion, just asR+L=J is , however it's not based entirely on that info at all, bit more than that:

Spoiler:
Jon Connington being one Of Rhaegars best friends, and that Martin has confirmed Rhaennys being dead but failed to confirm Aegon being dead when given the opportunity. It's all just theory, and admittedly an old theory as well. The only other conclusion I can draw is, that young Griff, may not be Aegon but told he was as in Aegon as heridatary traits are important elements in the series. Also the Varys connection, as Varys got Tyrion out, and Varys is most assuredly a Targaryen sympathizer. You right it's still just a theory, but a theory I am starting to go with a little more, where .

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear that I'm not the only one who noticed that Ainulindale. i just started reading these books last year, and don't know of all the things that other folks have figured out so....

Good to have you at the Watch!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
good to have you at the Watch!


Thanks for the welcome:)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol so you came across R + L = J huh?

heh if you go to the asoiaf site you will see so many threads devoted to this topic (and variouse twists on it) your head could explode lol.

one of the most popular theories. right along there with

the Grand Conspiricy Theory (largly proven.disproven)

Aegon is still alive

Benjen= coldhands

Sansa is no longer a stark (confirmed)

Who is hte prince who was promised?

Renly and Loras were gay (confirmed)

and a long list of others
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Os,
Quote:
Sansa is no longer a stark (confirmed)

How has this been confirmed? PM me if spoilerish.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i exagerate slightly bassicly


Spoiler:
the theory is that theres a great deal of symbolism in the fact that lady was killed but sansa lived on. that it signified her not being a 'real stark'. When we mentioned this to martin he grinned and bassicly confirmed it in so many words. I beleive he likewise confirmed it (by saying '*very* good observation') in an email which can be found in SSM. So the idea that her survival while her wolf is dead affects her starkishness and her connection and relationship to the other starks and the old gods is true.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Os,

Spoiler:
Perhaps that explains her brief alliance with the Lannisters in King's Landing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Though I don't see the reason to, I'll spoiler this because everyone else has been)

Spoiler:
I wonder, is it significant that she now rightly bears a different name? (Or does she - does the fact the marriage wasn't consummated mean she isn't a Lannister? Hmm.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well technicly shes still married yeah. the lack of consumation only means it *can* be voided if done through the proper procedures. its possible to get the equivlent of a divorce in other words. long as it isnt consumated
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I've been re-reading A Game of Thrones and the truth of Jon's parentage really is all there in the first book, just as Baradakas noticed.

I'd kinda gone along with the idea that Jon was the illegitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but now I realise I'm wrong - he's the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne (or he was, until he took the Black and forswore all titles and inheritence).

The same clues noted above are the reason:

- Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy weeks if not months after the death of Rhaegar, so it was not Rhaegar who killed her.
- If Rhaegar had truly been Lyanna's kidnapper and rapist, as Robert believes, why would Rhaegar have named their home the Tower of Joy?
- Three knights of the Kingsguard defend the tower, and when challenged about their absence at the Trident, the siege of Storm's End, and the flight of the other Targaryen children from the kingdom, they say that they serve the kingdom, not the Targaryens. What would they protect, weeks or months after the death of the king and his heir, that was more important than Aerys II Targaryen's other children?

The only thing that could command those three knights' presence at the Tower of Joy is the defence of their rightful King. The heir to Aerys must be legitimate, and the line of succession passes through first born sons - the only way that Lyanna's child could take precedence over Viserys is if he was the son of Rhaegar, by a woman to whom he was married.
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