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Does presenting an ID disadvantage the poor and minorities?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Does presenting an ID disadvantage the poor and minorities? Reply with quote

Someone please explain how in a country that requires a State or Federal ID card in order to apply for state or federal benefits, credit cards, cash checks, to buy age restricted products, guns, and some over the counter medications, that presenting an ID card in order to prove that you are how you say you are, is a real drawback to being able to vote?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For starters, telling someone that they can't vote because they don't have an ID is unconstitutional.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though there are studies out there that show the cost of obtaining ID (even if the state-supplied ID process itself is free), including transportation, lost working hours, etc. (and this not even bringing in the cost to the States that have to provide the IDs), it's actually a bit more complicated than that.

I think it's really a matter of subculture, what is often (and somewhat inaccurately) called the 'subculture of poverty.' It's more of a problem moving people who normally live outside of the mainstream culture -- that results in things like proper, organized records -- through it, so that they may obtain yet another outside cultural signifier that is ID. Rightly or wrongly, the perception is that the process further disenfranchises people that those opposed to the voter IDs want to enfranchise.

And for some, going through the process of obtaining an ID is... well, it reminds me of the old Python 'the art of not being seen' sketch. The financially stable usually don't have to worry about being found for unpaid parking tickets, child support, etc. Not pretty, but that kind of morality should not be tied to the necessity of a voting populace. And though I think it's a shitty law to deprive (released) felons of votes, for those States that have it, that's not what I mean.

Of course, allowing for that does necessarily increase the chance of voting fraud... or allowing illegals and such to vote. The question is, does the threat of possible voting fraud outweigh the impact of the solution on disenfranchising otherwise qualified voters? The evidence appears to say it isn't. By and large, voting fraud is more of a fear than a problem (typical reasons for voter apathy would seem to point to the futility of any one person voting illegally). And when it does happen, kind of like shoplifting, the real problem usually comes from within -- ballot stuffing, discarding, improper handling or counting, and that kind of thing (and some articles I've linked here or that you could find on dailykos, reddit, and so forth should prove that it's not all ACORN-type Democratic either, by a long shot).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL;DR - what Wayfriend said. Everybody hates voting fraud (or claims to), but the proposed method of solving it has a disproportionate effect on one side of the economic/political divide.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we lived in an ideal country, nothing would be wrong. Unfortunately, I hear stories all the time where minority friends present proper IDs to authorities for whatever reason and the authorities accuses them of falsifying that ID and try to bully them into admitting it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Living in a country where an ID document is compulsory, and is required for almost every sort of official transaction, from collecting a parcel from the post office to making a withdrawal from the bank, I'm completely used to the concept.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend, [syl],

wayfriend wrote:
For starters, telling someone that they can't vote because they don't have an ID is unconstitutional.


So, requiring registration to vote is "unconstitutional"? If not why not?

Regardless, why not simply issue the photo ID when the individual registers so that fraud is avoided from the inception of the process? After all with "Motor Voter" laws most people register at the DMV anyway. That's where "free state photo IDs" are issued.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
For starters, telling someone that they can't vote because they don't have an ID is unconstitutional.


Why? How can I tell if you are a registered voter? How do I tell that you havent voted in another precinct? How about if you are a convicted felon whose francise has not been restored? What if you are not legally able to vote because you are not a citizen? How about if you vote twice?

And frankly, how do I tell if you are even old enough to vote, according to federal law, unless you can present an ID card proving that you are of age to vote?

And also, the constitution states that I cannot impose special requirement on some of the population in order to vote, I have to impose those requirements on all the population.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do they usually control voting over in the US? ere, they have lists of names and addresses of registered voters and just check you off the list when you get your vote slip, but don't do any ID checks to prove you're who you say you are.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin,

Why is requiring registration okay but IDs are not, particularly in light of "motor voter"?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in Ohio is been required to have some form of ID
to vote at the booths for about 4 years now.
Only 15 States don't have the ID law.

There been rampant voter fraud in the past 8 years and it need to be controlled.

If you are required to register to vote then an ID when voting assures that you are casting the ballot and not some "outsider"

Otherwise it's, vote early and vote often can be the rule.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
Murrin,

Why is requiring registration okay but IDs are not, particularly in light of "motor voter"?

Not sure why you're asking me that since I've not voiced an opinion either way. Also no idea what "motor voter" is.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voting is a right; it is endemic to human nature to abuse rights.

I would hope some form of ID would be used. What's to stop people from going from polling place to polling place in busloads, voting over and over again? Where I live, no one is allowed to drive a car or motorcycle on voting days-- walking only-- in order to prevent the above from happening. People hate what must be done in order to protect their rights, but without those limits, abuse will be rampant.

To go back to the original question, everything disadvantages the poor and minorities. When you have resources and are of the enfranchised, things will just be easier for you all around. You can sit and whine, or stand up and do something. Unfairness should not paralyze society. Those of the enfranchised who care can do something, like those men and women who went through the South registering voters in the 1960's. But society as a whole can never truly level the playing field for everyone (though we must try).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if someone doesn't have id how are they cashing their paycheck?

this comes down to people on the left needing to create and issue and a case of class envy.

"the man is trying to take away your right!"

it's bs.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Murrin,

"Motor Voter" is a plan imposed by the feds on the States simce he late 80s wherein everyone is allowed to regeister to vote at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles as well as post offices and libraries. Free State Photo IDs are obtained at DMVs. Therefore, for most, registration and getting the ID can be done on the same trip.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you guys voted? Generally, first you have to register, requiring some kind of proof of address and identification. When your registration is accepted, you get a registration card in the mail and told where your polling station is. On Election Day, you go to that polling station. They verify your name to the list, mark it off, and there you go. If you go to a different polling station or don't have all your ducks in a row, you have to cast a provisional ballot. If they even decide to count provisional ballots, those, too, are verified.

The question is, can anybody here point to an actual, verifiable problem that providing a State or Federal ID would solve? How would showing my ID stop any of the fears mentioned so far? Isn't this just really paranoia that 'darkies and bums are gaming the system'? Or people manipulating them to, anyway. And yes, that's intentionally hyperbolic. So who's manipulating you? Who's using your fear, perfectly justifiable on the face of it, to shave a few slices off the side of the die?

And I take it nobody bothered to read my first reply in this thread?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[syl],

Given "motor voter" how is getting a photo ID any greater imposition on the time of the voter than simple registration is? If getting an ID is an unconstitutional impostion on the voter why is registration not unconstitutional in the first place?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot,

Given how debate is generally an exchange of ideas, and not just one person asking a series of questions off of loosely defined suppositions, how about answering some of the ideas that have already been proposed in contrast to the OP? I'm not particularly concerned with constitutionality at this point, as that's something the courts will work out, though I'm kind of mystified as to why you think "'motor voter'" is some kind of catch/cure-all.

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you will read and respond to some of the other ideas I have put forward in this thread. To answer -- as you probably know, registration is often done locally, from drives at the post office or local civic centers, door to door, etc. Many don't have official ID, for both intentional and unintentional reasons (which I listed above). People, likely your ideological opposites, often want to motivate these people to vote.

Similarly, the logic behind poll taxes was equally pragmatic. It costs money to have elections, the poll tax was quite modest, people who could afford all the common goods could easily afford it, and so on. The problem was, there were a lot of people (both black and poor white) who could not easily afford it, who lived outside the monetary system. But just as it's inconceivable to you that obtaining an ID is prohibitive, it was inconceivable to the majority Reconstruction culture that such a poll tax could possibly inconvenience anybody and that we should all just naturally want to do our part for the good of the elections/country.

But you know that those who mattered knew what kind of effect it would have, just as you should know that those who are pushing this agenda are also playing the numbers game. If you really believe it's about fairness of elections, then you're exactly the kind of rube they're looking for.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[syl],

If both registration and ID can be accomplished at the same time, same trip, same location I do not see how the ID requirement is any greater than the Registration requirement. Hence my question.

As to the silimarities to "poll taxes" I disagree that they are similar at all. States are making the photo IDs free to all who request them. The only way to claim this is a poll tax is to say the cost of traveling and waiting for the ID is a tax, but, you have to travel and spend time to get registered in the first place. Thus, we return to whether registration itself is Unconstitutional?

I do see what you are saying but aren't the difficuties self imposed based upon where the voter chooses to register? If they register at a DMV then the objections raised about location and time evaporate because eveverything can be accomplished at the same place and the same time.

If that does not satisfy and people still claim that ID requirements are Unconstitutional does it not necessarily follow that registration requirements are also Unconstitutional?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SerScot wrote:
[syl],

If both registration and ID can be accomplished at the same time, same trip, same location I do not see how the ID requirement is any greater than the Registration requirement. Hence my question.

As to the silimarities to "poll taxes" I disagree that they are similar at all. States are making the photo IDs free to all who request them. The only way to claim this is a poll tax is to say the cost of traveling and waiting for the ID is a tax, but, you have to travel and spend time to get registered in the first place. Thus, we return to whether registration itself is Unconstitutional?

I do see what you are saying but aren't the difficuties self imposed based upon where the voter chooses to register? If they register at a DMV then the objections raised about location and time evaporate because eveverything can be accomplished at the same place and the same time.

If that does not satisfy and people still claim that ID requirements are Unconstitutional does it not necessarily follow that registration requirements are also Unconstitutional?
Well put.

Moreover, if the difficulty of going to get an ID is somehow prejudicial, why wouldn't the required travel to a polling place be?
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